Posts by CalebInFloroda

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Isaiah 64.5 (6 in Christian Bibles)

We have all become like the unclean;
all our righteous deeds are like a menstrual rag.
All of us wither like a leaf;
our sins, like the wind, carry us away.

These words are not describing all of humankind. They are the words of the inhabitants of Jerusalem at the its spoiling and the carrying away of the Davidic king. A midrashic reading of the text is: "We have all become like the unclean now that the righteous have been taken from our midst." Note how the last verses of this chapter speak of this referring ONLY to the Jews, to G-d's people, and speaks of the First Temple's destruction. There is nothing in this chapter that indicates Jews meant these words to refer to anyone else but themselves. Did Gentiles suffer the destruction of the Temple? Of course not!

The expression that their "righteous deeds are like a menstrual rag" doesn't say they are suffering from original sin. It means that nothing they do, not even their best deeds can change the inevitable as they are carried away into Babylonian captivity.

And Leviticus 17 is saying that blood from animals had to be poured out at the altar, and not consumed as food. The entire animal sacrifice system, as I've pointed out--and you have shown everyone here that you cannot read--is how all ancients prepared their meat. Blood which represented life was dedicated to their gods in the butchering process. Blood could be used to show respect for life, but it didn't tell Jews that their was original sin.

And as for Ezekiel 18, it says that children will not die for the sins of their parents, such as the sin of Adam and Eve. Read all of it: the sin of parents is not visited on their descendants.

Why don't you just look it up on the Internet or go ask your neighborhood rabbi if I am telling the truth? We Jews have never believed in Original Sin and none of these verse mean these things to us. You keep saying that I am wrong about what we Jews believe, but I tell you that you are just being stubborn and not verifying that I am explaining what Jews have always believed.

Perry's argument: Caleb is making things up and not explaining true Jewish doctrine.

Caleb's argument: You've not proved from Jewish sources that your point is true. You've only used your interpretations.

35

We're All Going To Die

by Garrett in

jw
friends

life has been busy, but i am now on 2 weeks vacation which allowed me some thinking room.

and here's what's been on my mind.. we're all going to die.

no matter what we do, our fate is sealed.

CalebInFloroda

Hi Garrett,

Not all theists view things the way you mention. After leaving the JWs I went back to my Jewish roots, and the whole idea of an afterlife and this life being futile, and that we have to prepare for the life to come after this--all those things got left behind.

Now I am not implying or recommending Judaism. It's not just a religion, it's a culture, and though people can convert, for the most part we aren't looking to add new members because we think people are called to make the best out of life and the circumstances in which they live now.

But I will say this. It was surprisingly comforting for me to discover that there was another way of looking at things. Atheists and other non-Jews can do the same too, and one doesn't have to give up their core values or adopt a certain theology or reject one--well, it might not be too compatible with Christianity and Islam now that I think about it.

Anyway, the view is that this may the only life we have, the one right now. And isn't it wonderful enough to be thankful for what we have now?

Why worry about preparing for a future day or afterlife? If there is a G-d, wouldn't it be a little thankless to be concerned about tomorrow when G-d went through all this trouble to build a vast universe so you can have today? And if there is no G-d, isn't it equally stupid to not rejoice in what we have now?

Did any of us prepare to enter into the life we have now? None of us had any control over being born into this world. If there is no G-d, then we are living the miracle of life now. Don't miss it. And if there is a G-d, well we didn't have to work to get into this life. Why would G-d require us to do anything to get into the next if there is one? If there is a requirement, then the Jews who introduced the world to this G-d surely never heard of one.

In Jewish tradition there is the understanding that this universe will come to a close one day and a new realm will replace it, a "world to come," Olam Ha Ba in our language. What is it exactly? How do you get there? Beats me. But you don't have to be a Jew or a theist or anything in particular to be a part of it. It is the natural order of things that has yet to be revealed, as natural as when a new day dawns. As long as people do the best they can, are just, and live to their full potential then they will naturally come to be there.

But preparation for it? Just as you have had no control in regards to entering this one, you will have no control over getting into the next. We do understand that those who work contrary to life and justice in this world won't be a part of the next, but I dare say very few I've ever encountered have anything to worry about.

If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. If it does, it does. I say if there is anything you are going to take from a theist, take this from us Jews who invented the monotheistic G-d: do your best at life now and enjoy what has been given to you now, and do the same tomorrow, and every other tomorrow that is given to you as long as they are given to you. There's nothing more to worry about.

Oh, and no belief in any G-d is required.

If there is a G-d, then life surely isn't about believing in G-d. Life would then be evidence that G-d believes in you.

20

Movies/Books for Cult Survivors

by Brighid in

for me, there have always been special movies or scenes in movies that trigger my old jw experience (fiddler on the roof and little mermaid touched me deeply when i watched them as a young jw).

later as a survivor, it was more donnie darko, thx 1138 themes that struck me in particular.. anyway, looking for suggestions on great movies, books (art of any kind, really) that especially speak to or move you as a jw survivor?

there are reasons beyond purely entertainment that i ask..

CalebInFloroda

Believe it or not, I found a recent comedy exclusive to Netflix very healing entitled "The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt."

It's a terrific farce created by "30 Rock" star and writer Tina Fey about a young woman who had lived in an underground bunker for years with a handful of other women because of belonging to a cult that taught that God had brought Armageddon upon the world due to stupidity.

She and her fellow cult members get rescued and reintroduced to today's world when their cult leader (who freely roams the world above) is arrested for "acting weird at a WalMart."

What is so addictive about the series (including it's now popular theme song) is how the current world seems so foreign and alien to Kimmy since she has been cut off from it for so long. Cerebral, wacky, and hilarious, the Netflix series has recently been nominated for several Emmy awards.

7

the thing i find strange

by pepperheart in

the thing i find strange is that lots of jws seem as though they dont even want to hear godfrey jackson speak on friday can a member of the gb say somthing that is asposate lol

CalebInFloroda

This is due to the effects that ideological fanaticism can have on people. It is also a sign that things have indeed started to deteriorate, even if we don't think so now.

When Imperial Japan was under the control of Empreror worship ideology in WWII, it was very difficult for the people to hear the Emperor speak on the radio and declare defeat. Some didn't think it was even scientifically possible. Others attempted a military coup to try to prevent the Emperor from doing so because they felt it was being heretical. Some people killed themselves instead of hearing the Emperor declare defeat.

Even though the Emperor's surrender speech to the people of Japan was spoken using a dialect a bit too archaic for most common people of Japan to understand, the reports are that most felt a horrific shame at listening even to the sound of his voice. Many fell to their knees and wept. Others report of the horrific shame they felt. This meant their deity was human and their religion a farce and that their religion was wrong. For many it was just too unbelievable a burden to even listen.

Do you want to listen to people who tell you that your choice to leave the JWs was wrong? Of course not. But could you imagine what that would be like, that all us exJWs were indeed wrong, and that on Friday we were going to be presented with further evidence (not just the first evidence but further evidence) of how wrong we have been? Would you readily want to hear the final death knolls that rang out "I told you so"? It wouldn't be easy, and if you could avoid it you likely would. No one wants to be present for their own execution.

People lost to an ideology respond this way. They cannot accept when reality comes around and announces them as undeniably mistaken. They will do everything to block out reality, everything necessary to preserve the illusion.

15

Angel of the True God

by StarTrekAngel in

i usually open posts such as this one with disclaimer for the atheists/agnostics out there.

i respect your position and what i tried to do in posts like this one is discuss the bible, wether you believe the stories or not.. i believe it is well known that in jw doctrine it is thought that no one has ever seen god.

this teaching is also supplemented by the accounts of moises, where jehovah told him that no one can see him and yet live to tell the tale.. i, however, was always puzzled by some of the grammar in the bible where it seems to imply that god appeared to people.

CalebInFloroda

That was a very interesting part of study I did early in my theology years, namely that divine revelation to Moses and others included theophanies (visions of G-d) but the Jews still believed that if they saw G-d that they would die--even after G-d proved otherwise by demonstration.

You read this all through the Tanakh, and like Vivane says it is a contradiction. What it demonstrates, regardless if the stories are meant to be historical or just legends, is that the Jews are repeatedly described as disbelieving G-d.

G-d appears to Moses as fire burning in a bush, and Moses readily looks at it until G-d tells him he is seeing G-d. Only then does Moses shield his face.

This happens again at the Great Theophany, at the foot of Mt. Sinai, where G-d appears as a great fire on the mountain and even speaks, but the people won't have it, believing they will die if G-d keeps showing himself and talking. But later Moses and elders from the tribes have a "meal/meeting" with G-d face-to-face on the mountain.

The theme actually runs throughout the Tanakh and is related to the reason why Jews are called the "children of Israel" and not the "children of Abraham." Israel (Jacob) wrestled with an angel, or theophany of G-d and wouldn't stop once the roughhousing, so to speak, came to end. G-d had to wound Jacob to end the situation.

The underlying lesson is that the G-d "concept" is something Jews have always struggled with. It demands a level of trust and faith that Jews have not ever been comfortable with. We don't believe in submitting to G-d. G-d put us here, in the mud, so to speak, and expects us to live our lives alone? No way, Jews say, you put us here and we're bringing you down with us, down into the same mud! It's a fight to define G-d as G-d, to re-define G-d as history moves, and to allow G-d at the same time to be self-defining...and then arguing with G-d about it all. That's why its totally acceptable to be a Jew who is atheist or agnostic. We are thus children of Israel, those who refuse to submit to G-d.

So you will read G-d saying it is okay to see G-d, and Jews telling him that they will die if they see him. It's a running theme (or maybe even a running joke) in the Scriptures.

579

Won't get fooled again ...Moon Landing.

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

so i was fooled by the witnesses.

what can i learn from that?

not to accept things at face value but to seek out opinion and different view points.. hence my question " do you believe man landed on the moon?.

CalebInFloroda

I recently saw the moon landing replayed on telly just the other day.

It wasn't what I remembered at all. The astronauts looked like Wallace and Gromit and the surface was made of Wensleydale.

30

Prophecy in Daniel: A last Fierce-looking King

by Kosonen in

there is an unfulfilled prophecy in daniel about the last king that will be broken without human hand.

the prophecy says he will be fierce-looking, deceptive, efficent in his doings, smart and causing ruin to many.

and he will exalt himself.

CalebInFloroda

You did well on finding the parallel “vision.” But it is still the same event and same “king” of the Chanukah events as far as historians, Jews, and mainstream Christian exegetes are concerned.

And the “little horn” is likewise also understood to be Antiochus Epiphanes. His power grew exactly as describes in Daniel in regard to his campaigns in Egypt, Persia, and eventually the Holy Land. Antiochus is also the subject of the prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. (Telling the same event over in “threes” is a numerology earmark of apocalyptic compositions, “confirming” the demise of Antiochus.)

The “three and a half times” or years is the same period as mentioned in Daniel 9.27. The Second Temple was desecrated by Antiochus from 167 to 164 BCE.

30

Prophecy in Daniel: A last Fierce-looking King

by Kosonen in

there is an unfulfilled prophecy in daniel about the last king that will be broken without human hand.

the prophecy says he will be fierce-looking, deceptive, efficent in his doings, smart and causing ruin to many.

and he will exalt himself.

CalebInFloroda

Viviane is 100% correct.

First of all, the Book of Daniel is not found in the “Prophets” section of the Hebrew Scriptures. It contains personal visions given to kings and Daniel himself, but since it contains no oracles for Israel, it is not considered a book of prophecy. Daniel is found in the “Writings” instead.

Jews did not consider dreams and visions to be fundamental to prophecy as prophecy had to be publicly issued among the Jews with a verified fulfillment to be considered “prophecy.” Visions are personal, not public, and do not qualify as oracle pronouncements. That being said, the visions of Daniel concern only the time leading up to the Seleucid period of persecution and its demise.

Jewish and Christian (and even historical) scholars agree that the writings are not foretelling the future but employing a narrative genre known as “apocalyptic composition.” This type of genre used the backdrop of dreams and images as devices to give commentary and opinion regarding current political intrigue. They are similar to today’s “talking heads” on news outlets who interpret what the news “means,” specializing in offering opinion regarding politics and intrigue stirred up by the same. Since freedom of speech did not exist in ancient times, apocalyptic composition was employed.

The “visions” were all fulfilled before Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth, and in fact lead up to the events that are now celebrated by the Jews at Chanukah. The “king” mentioned is Antiochus Epiphanes whose attempt to dedicate the Second Temple to Zeus by sacrificing a pig on the altar was met with the rebellion of Judas Maccabeus.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Perry

If you would like to start a new thread about the points you argue I would welcome that. In reply to the points you've already raised I can only point out again that your claim that Jewish theology agrees with your views on Original Sin is very incorrect.

Psalm 51.7 (in most Christian Bibles the verse count is different, and is usually numbered as verse “5”):

Indeed I was born with iniquity;
with sin my mother conceived me.

Note that this is a prayer of repentance made by David after committing adultery with Bathsheba and having her husband killed, leading to the eventual death of the child conceived by the adulterous act. This is therefore not a discussion about the sins of others or humanity’s guilt. David is discussing his own.

David doesn’t say, “I have inherited sin from Adam,” or even dares to say that someone else is responsible for his sin. David is saying his sin is his alone, not that it was passed from mother to son. Note that the Scripture doesn’t say all humans were born with iniquity or that all people have been conceived by their mothers with sin, just he himself.

Genesis 8.21

The devisings of humanity are evil from youth onward.

The text doesn’t say that people have inherited sin from Adam. It merely says that people have the capacity to plan or invent evil from their earliest ages.

The Bible also tells us that humans have the equal capacity to master this inclination at Genesis 4.7, and can choose good over evil as stated at Psalm 37.27.

You have argued that the word “youth” that appears in Hebrew implies that sin is inherited from infancy, but that is not true. The Hebrew word, “naur,” only means “youth” or “childhood.” “Naur” is not a noun describing a person but period of young age. In Hebrew it literally translates as “early life” and not as “young person.” A period of time or age cannot inherit anything.

Psalm 14.2-3

The Lord looks down from heaven
on humankind
to see if any are wise,
if any seek God.

All have gone astray,
depraved, every one;
there is no one who does any good;
no, not even one.

This text is very much read out of context. Note how in verses 4-6 ‘all who have gone astray’ are contrasted with a different group, “the generation of the just” of verse 5. The “all” who do no good, “no, not even one” are referred to as a group apart from Israel, referred to as “they.”

Are they [all who have gone astray] so witless,
all those evildoers,
who devour my people [a separate group from “all who have gone astray”]
as they devour food,
and do not invoke the Lord?

There they [all who have gone astray] will be seized with fright,
for God is present in the generation of the just [a separate group from “all who have gone astray”].
You may mock the plans of one that is poor,
but his refuge is the Lord.

No, this text is referring to the psalmists enemies as “all who have gone astray.” It does not include all human beings because it definitely does not include “my people” who are being devoured by the “all who have gone astray” group.

Job 15.15-16
If [God] doesn’t trust his holy ones and even the heavens aren’t pure in his eyes, how much less those who are abominable and corrupt, for they drink sin like water.

This text, which only half was quoted by you, is hyperbole. If it was literal, then Heaven, where G-d lives, is an impure place and all the angels live with the knowledge that G-d doesn’t trust any of them. Do you believe that too? These are not the words of faithful Job but of his “friend” Eliphaz the Temanite, and besides they merely state that G-d doesn’t trust people “who are abominable and corrupt.” It doesn’t say all humankind has inherited sin from Adam.

Jeremiah 17.19

This text does not “assume original sin.” It merely states:

Most cunning is the human heart, beyond remedy— who can truly understand it?

Ecclesiastes 9.3 is also hyperbole:

The hearts of all human beings are filled with evil, and madness is in the mind of every person throughout their lives, filling every moment until they die.

If this is literally saying that all human hearts are filled with evil, then it is equally true that all of us are suffering from madness until the day we die. But that is not what the text really means. Even if it were literal, it still doesn’t say humans inherited sin from Adam.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Litebrite

Then it seems you are at a good place.

Keep in mind that what I have supplied is the philological background for actual exegetical work, which you will have to work out for yourself and on your own. Jews don't have an "official" exegesis of Scripture. This is about as far as I can go before introducing in-depth Jewish theology into the picture. From this point onward Jews take the philology and build upon it.

In conclusion, the main point from the Jewish view is that all creation was created "good," with the potential to be good and do good despite not always being perfect or sometimes making the wrong choices. We can all reverse our courses when we've realized we have made mistakes and make the outcome a good one.

It does differ strikingly from the Christian theological paradigm which considers the second creation account as the only valid one or more important one, leaving people to see themselves and the world around them as wounded by a single act of sin and thus undeserving of life and the world around them. I find that some Christians are unwilling to accept the Jewish concept that all humanity, unbelievers included, all innately good with the capacity to not only bring good into the world but holiness and redemption as well.