Posts by CalebInFloroda

29

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel here is why

by paradisebeauty in

one of the biggest missunderstanding and unbiblical teaching of the jw's is that jesus is michael the archangel.

here is what proffessor anthony buzzard has to say about this:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqzffyxno0.

CalebInFloroda

@nicolaou

I'm Jewish so I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Also Jews don't base their beliefs on the Scriptures; the Scriptures are based on our beliefs. So I am neither arguing here for a belief in Jesus, Christianity, etc.

The actual Christian teaching is that Jesus is the Incarnation of G-d, not an angel. The expression "son of God" in the New Testament in reference to Jesus is a Semitic expression which means "of the same cloth," similar to the English idioms, "spitting image" or "chip off the old block." The title "Son of God" in reference to Jesus expresses what is referred to as the Epiphany in Christianity: the realization that God was present in the Person of Jesus. The Epiphany is a teaching that predates any writings of the New Testament, though it is not an explicit teaching of the Trinity as it only deals with the identity of Jesus but not his nature or that of the Holy Spirit.

The thread is here discussing whether the JW theology is compatible with this. The Witnesses believe that "Son of God" means what it does in English instead of what it means in Semitic idiom, namely "male offspring of God." Because of this anachronistic reading, the JWs have adopted the idea that Jesus as likely the archangel Michael.

The question therefore is not whether the Bible's claim about Jesus is true, but whether or not the JW exegesis fits all of Chrstian theolog. Remember Christianity existed for at least 40 or 50 years before the first Gospel account was written. That is an entire generation or lifetime back then. There was already a living Christian theology and liturgy in place which affected how these texts were written. Like Judaism, the New Testament is not the basis for Christian claims, it is a reflection of them.

As a Jew I have to admit that there is some historical basis for accepting that Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth. However because his followers defined him in terms of an Epiphany and the Incarnation, many Jews could not accept such views as this violated the Shema in their view. This rejection of Jesus as Messiah was pre-New Testament, not after the New Testament. The New Testament was neither the basis nor foundation of the stories about Jesus, the same stories which by the mid-first century had already been rejected by the Jewish community at large before being written.

In conclusion, one cannot merely argue or try to prove the claims of New Testament Scripture in reference to Jesus. The origins of the claims about him are far more ancient. One needs to delve into the most ancient theology of the Church. Since it's claims about Jesus state that Christ is the Incarnation of YHWH, the Church expects the Epiphany to be accepted on the basis of faith, not evidence.

The challenge of the Church is not whether there is empirical evidence for their claims, but rather will people put faith in what they have. The New Testament merely extended these claims into written form.

Our disbelief in these aside, the point of thread is trying to show that the JW argument is flawed. Disbelief in spirits and deities is a conclusion, true, but not an efficacious means of examining their exegetical approach.

Regardless what either you or I believe on the subject of Jesus or G-d, those things often have to be put aside to demonstrate other points at hand.

29

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel here is why

by paradisebeauty in

one of the biggest missunderstanding and unbiblical teaching of the jw's is that jesus is michael the archangel.

here is what proffessor anthony buzzard has to say about this:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqzffyxno0.

CalebInFloroda

@Vidqun

You’ve created a paradox that disproves your argument.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 identifies the archangel with Michael.

Employing the same formula you do here, you are also saying that Jesus is Jehovah.

The text at 1 Thessalonians 4.16 not only says Jesus begins the resurrection with “the archangel’s call” but that Jesus also commands them to rise “with the sound of God’s trumpet.”

If the fact that Jesus employs “the archangel’s call” means that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then the same logic would mean that you believe that Jesus is also the Almighty since Jesus has the control of and uses “God’s trumpet.”

This would further mean that Jehovah is also Michael the Archangel. I doubt this is what you believe.

You see when you use Scripture, your logic has to hold up under all scrutiny. The rule is simple: what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If logic applied in one instances proves something, then the same logic proves the same thing in any and every other case.

If using the “archangel’s call” makes Jesus the same as Michael the Archangel, then using “God’s trumpet” also makes Jesus the same as Jehovah. And if Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then Jehovah is also Michael the Archangel.

But that would go against Scripture.

Hebrews chapter 1 tells us that no angel of any kind, not even an archangel is the same as Jesus:

The Son became so much greater than the other messengers, such as angels, that he received a more important title than theirs.

After all, when did God ever say to any of the angels:

You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father?

Or, even,

I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son?

But then, when he brought his firstborn into the world, he said,

All of God’s angels must worship him.

He talks about the angels:

He’s the one who uses the spirits for his messengers
and who uses flames of fire as ministers.

But he says to his Son,

God, your throne is forever
and your kingdom’s scepter is a rod of justice.
You loved righteousness and hated lawless behavior.
That is why God, your God,
has anointed you with oil instead of your companions.

And he says,

You, Lord, laid the earth’s foundations in the beginning,
and the heavens are made by your hands.
They will pass away,
but you remain.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
You will fold them up like a coat.
They will be changed like a person changes clothes,
but you stay the same,
and the years of your life won’t come to an end.

When has he ever said to any of the angels,

Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your feet like a footstool?

Aren’t all the angels ministering spirits who are sent to serve those who are going to inherit salvation?

—To the Hebrews 1.4-14, italics added.

16

This is funny! BAR article asks: "Was Eve Made from Adam’s Rib—or His Baculum?" But what is a Baculum?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

we all know the bible story (as its translated into english) that eve was made from adam's rib.

now bible scholar, ziony zevit, distinguished professor of biblical literature and northwest semitic languages at american jewish university in bel-air, california has written in the 'biblical archeological review' that the hebrew word that is traditionally translated as rib which is 'istsela has been wrongly translated.. zevit says, "it was first translated as rib in the septuagint, a greek translation of the hebrew bible from the mid-third century b.c.e.

however, a more careful reading of the hebrew word for rib in the adam and eve story suggests that eve was created from another, very different, part of adams anatomyhis os baculum (penis bone).".

CalebInFloroda

@fulltimestudent

Interesting points. Four stars-worthy, indeed!

Yes, Second Temple-era Judaism is partly to blame for the "Jesus" movement. When the Roman occupation occurred, many Jews developed the Messianic concept into an individual monarch that would redeem Israel from Gentile rule.

But the idea of a Messiah who is actually a person may be a prophetic device, employing a personification to a concept connected to the reclaiming of Israel by G-d. Today many Jews have returned to the more ancient concept of Messiah, one who may not necessarily be an actual individual. The Messiah in the minds of many Jews may be the completion of the Jewish concept of Tikklun Olam that will usher in the Messianic Age.

Whatever the meaning, those who fail to evolve with Judaism are themselves responsible for being left behind.

16

This is funny! BAR article asks: "Was Eve Made from Adam’s Rib—or His Baculum?" But what is a Baculum?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

we all know the bible story (as its translated into english) that eve was made from adam's rib.

now bible scholar, ziony zevit, distinguished professor of biblical literature and northwest semitic languages at american jewish university in bel-air, california has written in the 'biblical archeological review' that the hebrew word that is traditionally translated as rib which is 'istsela has been wrongly translated.. zevit says, "it was first translated as rib in the septuagint, a greek translation of the hebrew bible from the mid-third century b.c.e.

however, a more careful reading of the hebrew word for rib in the adam and eve story suggests that eve was created from another, very different, part of adams anatomyhis os baculum (penis bone).".

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

Which of the three creation stories are you talking about, and do you believe they all come from the same foreign sources? Who did the validation work on your theories? You raise some interesting points even though much of academia would not agree on all your points.

@fulltimestudent

Of course you realize you are only talking about Gentile Christians (which I am sure you do). Except for fanatical Ultra-Orthodox Jews, Judaism doesn't support a literal inerpretation of these stories like Christans do.

Also Jews don't "suspend belief" as the concepts of "belief" and "faith" are irrelevant to Judaism. If we could find out why so many Christians are intent on making the religious lessons and mythos of my people read as literal history, I believe we can also solve most of the world's problems. I kinda wish they had chosen some other culture's mythology to try to prove true because we Jews get blamed for their curious exegesis.

34

JW to SDA anyone do it ?

by Introvert 2 in

a couple friends pointed me to some info on the sabbath and i just plain like it, being the workaholic i am it's a lifesaver for me and gives me the motivation to be more balanced about my business and work schedule.

so from there i looked into the adventists and found a hall near my place and went last week.

i honestly enjoyed myself and the meeting time is not disruptive and the people were great and pretty laid back.

CalebInFloroda

@barry

I do agree that there are some who do not subscribe to Anglo-Israelism, but I have had the unfortunate experience of meeting a few that do. Some of them even believe they are actually more Jewish than Jews, or so they have led me to believe by the conversations I have had with them.

16

This is funny! BAR article asks: "Was Eve Made from Adam’s Rib—or His Baculum?" But what is a Baculum?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

we all know the bible story (as its translated into english) that eve was made from adam's rib.

now bible scholar, ziony zevit, distinguished professor of biblical literature and northwest semitic languages at american jewish university in bel-air, california has written in the 'biblical archeological review' that the hebrew word that is traditionally translated as rib which is 'istsela has been wrongly translated.. zevit says, "it was first translated as rib in the septuagint, a greek translation of the hebrew bible from the mid-third century b.c.e.

however, a more careful reading of the hebrew word for rib in the adam and eve story suggests that eve was created from another, very different, part of adams anatomyhis os baculum (penis bone).".

CalebInFloroda

@Crazyguy

Two problems with your theory:

1. The "rib" story predates Babylonian exposure. The previous creation story, chapter 1, about the six creative days is the one that came about after Babylonian captivity. Philologically speaking the second story, from Genesis 2, is not only much older but clearly comes from Hebrew oral narrative.

2. The word in Hebrew is NOT "rib," which is the point of the thread. The use of the word "rib" comes from Gentile renderings and is anachronistic, such as the way people picture an "apple" as the forbidden fruit. While you are correct that the idea of a rib comes from heathen sources about creation, this has influenced the TRANSLATION of the Hebrew text, mostly by Christians who from their exposure to such stories inserted the idea of a "rib." The Hebrew expression is ambiguous at best and hard to situate, and outside of borrowing some Mesopotamian cosmogony this narrative has many original elements unseen in other mythologies.

5

John 13:35.

by Sabin in

so my husband believes the wording in john 13:35 is wrong.

instead of saying, "by this all will know that you are my disciples-if you have love among yourselves".

it should say "by this all will know that you are my disciples-if you have love for yourselves".

CalebInFloroda

Actually, this is the problem with reading the Bible as if it were written in English.

The expression in Greek to have love "among" or "for yourselves" means to love among humans or other mortals, not love just among Christ's followers or members of your particular group.

This gets lost in the translation due to the fact that people read the text as if it was written from their point of view. AGAPEN ECHETE EN ALLELOIS means to "posses love for those you are among" not love those who belong to you. That would be AGAPEN ECHETE DE ALLELOIS, "posses love those of yourselves."

Recognizing that there was sarcasm at the center of this comment, it does show how JWs have distorted the words simply because there is no one among them who really understands Greek.

34

JW to SDA anyone do it ?

by Introvert 2 in

a couple friends pointed me to some info on the sabbath and i just plain like it, being the workaholic i am it's a lifesaver for me and gives me the motivation to be more balanced about my business and work schedule.

so from there i looked into the adventists and found a hall near my place and went last week.

i honestly enjoyed myself and the meeting time is not disruptive and the people were great and pretty laid back.

CalebInFloroda

I find it creepy that Gentiles enforce Sabbath-keeping and celebrating national Jewish holidays as requisites to salvation, and the SDA included.

The reason the SDA does this is the belief in a doctrine called Anglo-Israelism. This belief teaches that white Americans are descendants of the "lost" tribes of Israel. As such they believe that they should be bound to the tenets of the Mosaic Law because it is the constitution of the Tribes of Israel.

Among the other groups that share this belief are the one-time sister religion of the JWs known as the Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong (who also predicted that the world would end in 1975, by the way), and the Mormons (though the LDS does not keep the Jewish Sabbath, per se).

Now you can actually swab the inside of my cheek and find DNA specific hereditary markers of a Sephardic Jew of Semite origins, but these deluded people cannot do the same (I've had some of these tell me that DNA evidence is irrelevant or that G-d changes their blood to be Jewish in a spiritual way or perhaps the Devil is tampering with DNA results to hide the truth). My thoughts is you can take any day off at any time of the week and get the same effect as a good Jewish Sabbath.

Besides, why observe the Sabbath like a Jew and celebrate Jewish feasts like a Jew and dress like a Jew, etc., but belong to a different religion? Just convert if you like it that much. Otherwise a little borrowing here and there from this and that doesn't require you join any group or organization of any kind.

In my opinion you are better off being true to yourself without denominational ties for now. Take in what's around you, learn from life, and if you end up adopting a certain philosophy or ritual along the way, let it be something that adds to your freedom, not takes away from it.

16

This is funny! BAR article asks: "Was Eve Made from Adam’s Rib—or His Baculum?" But what is a Baculum?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

we all know the bible story (as its translated into english) that eve was made from adam's rib.

now bible scholar, ziony zevit, distinguished professor of biblical literature and northwest semitic languages at american jewish university in bel-air, california has written in the 'biblical archeological review' that the hebrew word that is traditionally translated as rib which is 'istsela has been wrongly translated.. zevit says, "it was first translated as rib in the septuagint, a greek translation of the hebrew bible from the mid-third century b.c.e.

however, a more careful reading of the hebrew word for rib in the adam and eve story suggests that eve was created from another, very different, part of adams anatomyhis os baculum (penis bone).".

CalebInFloroda

@Phizzy

According to most Jews, Catholics, and some mainstream Protestants this narrative is indeed seen not as historical but as one of three creation stories in Scripture.

In the first, in Genesis chapter 1, Adam and Eve seem to be separate creations. But this first story was likely a redaction added to Genesis after the exile to Babylon ended.

The second story is the one we are discussing. It is the most ancient, and it tells the same story but employing older narrative devices. One of them is that humans are made from the elements that make up the universe: man from the earth and woman from man.

The third story is the Noachin flood and it is probably older than either of the first two stories as it originates with the Mesopotamian societies that surrounded the Hebrews. The popular cosmogony of the time what that the earth was placed in a cosmos made up not of a vacuum of space but completely full of water. This shared mythology did not concern itself with or promote belief in a universe that had a beginning but mainly stated that the gods created the current world from a previous one, flooding the older one away and starting anew. In the Jewish adaptation, Noah and his wife are the original parents.

While these are definitely not to be read as literal history they do have some historical significance and elements. To begin with they explain what ancients believed about the universe and how this shaped their view of society and their place in it.

Second, read within the Jewish sphere the stories employ personages believed to be historical but set within the scope of narratives designed for catechesis. The reason appears to be to teach lessons not on how the universe literally began but to support Jewish concepts on morality, values, and theology.

In other words the narratives are used not as the foundation for doctrine as in the Watchtower religion, but as a means to reiterate doctrine already in existence in Judaism.

5

John 13:35.

by Sabin in

so my husband believes the wording in john 13:35 is wrong.

instead of saying, "by this all will know that you are my disciples-if you have love among yourselves".

it should say "by this all will know that you are my disciples-if you have love for yourselves".

CalebInFloroda

The text reads in Greek:

EN TOUTO GNOSONTAI PANTES HOTI EMOI MATHETAI ESTAN EAN AGAPEN ECHETE EN ALLELOIS.

In English that would be:

By this will know all that my disciples you are if love you have among one another.

Or as the Common English Bible puts it:

This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, when you love each other.

The word in question would therefore be the Greek word EN, which literally means "in" but as a preposition in connection with ALLELOIS which means "one another" or "people together" specifies being "in among."

While the word is not "for," as EN only means "in, among, at, with, on, by," it would not be wrong to render the verse: "...as long as you have love for one another." The meaning of the original Greek would not be lost in such an instance.