Posts by CalebInFloroda

19

As a Work of Literature The Bible is Just Dreadful

by cofty in

of course it's easy to criticise the bible for all manner of serious flaws, but it fails on a more basic level.. it is just a terrible piece of literature.. this piece on "southern skeptic" is well worth a read.. god is a terrible writer....

CalebInFloroda

Very good points in the article and well though out.

Of course, the author of the article is writing from what appears to be a stand specifically against a Fundamentalist Christian approach of Scripture. Jews acknowledge that these books were never meant to be the basis of a religion or many of the things pointed out in the post.

The Hebrew Scriptures are a product of a religion, not the basis for it or the foundation for its theology. Judaism was alive and well, functioning with a liturgy and even a Temple by the time the Scriptures began to take their shape. This is contrary to Fundamentalists and JWs who claim that true religion should be based on the Scriptures.

At least for the Jewish Scriptures I can say that since the Tanakh was not planned to be an exhaustive source or doctrinal foundation for our religious thought, practices or culture and there was no intended plan for them to ever be that. In fact these books were never written with the thought that Gentiles would ever read them or even handle them, let alone use them to create a religion that would persecute us for 2000 years.

The Hebrew Bible is not the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Live Forever book, or the Book of Mormon. It's definitely NOT the New Testament! Jews already had beliefs and a religion by the time they wrote this book. Unlike many Christians, the book did not come first and the religion second. Jews and Judaism came first, with the Scriptures based upon and not the basis for what we are.

And it wasn't made to be literature like a grand masterpiece of fiction. It's the writings of a tribal people. It's ancient, reflects our beliefs at the time they were composed (not necessarily held today), and not what JWs or Christians claim it is.

It's not that the Tanakh is not what Jews think it should be, it is that too many Gentiles think the Jewish Bible is something we Jews never said it was and that it plainly isn't.

49

this weeks bible highlights: Jehovah slaughters his own people to teach David a lesson

by nowwhat? in

from 2 samuel 24. i am so mad at myself for not making a comment how could anyone explain this away?

then after he slaughters 70,000 he then feels regret?

CalebInFloroda

The Jewish standpoint is that this is a legend used to support the reason why Jews (and other Eastern tribes) have reservations about taking a census.

According to ancient Jewish superstition (yep, we got them in our culture just like others), a census can bring evil upon the people counted. It's not really known why we Jews have this superstition (some other cultures do too). Rabbinical sources and folklore connect the taking of a census to the cause of all types of problems, from national disaster to making a person susceptible to "evil eye"!

Yeah, I know. It's ridiculous, but we Jews used to believe that. Some believe it is because our G-d told Abraham that his children would be "like the sands of the sea, unable to be numbered," and thus holding a census is seen by some as tantamount to challenging the Almighty G-d. Exodus 30.11-16 even declares that in order to avoid "plague" each person enrolled in a census has to pay G-d for his protection from such adverse effects.

Our ancestors saw their fears and superstitions as intertwined with their religion, so it takes some knowledge of the culture, its quirks and its failings, to tell what the Jews were sometimes saying in the Scriotures...and sometimes even that helps but little.

Unlike the JWs we Jews don't claim we know for sure what is happening here, but like many things about Hebrew (like reading right to left), you need to read the story differently than with the approach many Christians take with it. Apparently there was a national tragedy which the Jews couldn't explain due to the ancient belief that G-d protects his people from all adversity no matter what. Yet when disaster did strike it left people looking for a reason.

What caused it? Hmm, nothing...the people were being faithful, they were showing allegiance to the King, and the King had just finished his census, and--

WAIT! The census!

So, according to genre, a narrative was devised that states how God sent a plague due to David's census, for as you know 'taking a census causes all kinds of evil!'

There's a lot in Hebrew writings of all types that you have to approach this way. There are genre earmarks that are common to legend, myth, or parable. Because the Jews never expected their writings to be read by Gentiles, they didn't write with other cultures in mind. Superficial readings caused by religions like the JW remove the texts from their intended audience and paradigm, and read in a vacuum where the demand is that everything written has to be fact causes nonsense.

Not that it makes too much sense to the modern Jew either, but at least we don't run around saying this is factual history and condemning others if they don't believe in our interpretation.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@Vidiot

Thanks for the thumbs up. And yes, they do more than just screw up one's view of Scripture.

@Kepler

The English word "Gentile" comes from the Latin translation of the Greek word ETHNIKOS/ETHNOS, namely "gentilis." The English word "ethnicity" comes from ETHNOS, and the English word "genus" comes from the Latin word which itself generally means "tribe."

In Hebrew the word for a non-Jew is "goy." And often the word ETHNOS is used to mean "goy," or Gentile. But sometimes it just means "people."

So you are right, you have to let the context guide you. But in modern versions like the one I was quoting from, the NRSV, they are often very careful to only use "Gentiles" when "goy" or non-Jew is meant. The NRSV renders it "people" or "nations" depending on the context too. To illustrate, the NRSV uses "Gentiles" at Matthew 6.7 but is careful to translate it as "nations" at Matthew 25.32.

20

Futility of being right

by JWdaughter in

so, on another thread, about pluto, grreat teacher said something that speaks to my feelings about religon.

"i've kinda been sad since pluto has been demoted to dwarf planet.. you talk about 9 planets and all the little kids at school will correct you real quick and tell you that now there are only 8 planets in the solar system!".

nothing in the universe has changed but the opinion of men.

CalebInFloroda

Part of the reason for what you are describing has to do with the fact that we live a world where being incorrect about something is equated with being or doing something wrong.

Being incorrect or mistaken is not exactly the same thing as doing something wrong or being bad. But from childhood onward we are raised in a system where being correct is rewarded, but being mistaken or "getting it wrong" is frowned upon, even punished.

I can remember being spanked badly for bringing home a failing grade. I look back at that and think: How ridiculous! I failed in the class not because I was a bad child or misbehaving. I actually failed because I didn't comprehend the material. I used to have a learning disorder when it came to numbers, much like dyslexia with reading. But back then they didn't know about this (most don't know about it today either). So teachers told my folks I was not paying attention in class or caring to do my work. It wasn't that. I really couldn't do it.

Once my situation had been properly diagnosed and treated I could perform well on any math exam, especially in advanced forms of mathematics. But the experience left a scar that told me deep inside that if I ever made another bad grade, I was being a bad child, a bad human being. This stressed me out for the rest of my school days.

So when it comes to ideologies or convictions, whether they be religious or not, we are in effect still acting like children. We want to be right because we believe that being mistaken is morally wrong in one way or another.

We even "punish" those people we think have a mistaken view. We tease them, call them names, treat them badly. But for all we know this person may make claim to a conviction simply due to a mistake they made in judgment. They don't correct themselves because they, like you, think that if they are wrong about what they believe that this makes them in some way bad. No one goes around thinking they are bad or mistaken. We all believe or want to believe we are right, good, and enlightened.

We argue because we are in some ways still defending the child in us that see challenges to our personal convictions as inciting us to be "bad children." We are not bad, we tell ourselves. We are good! So we resist because we want to keep acting like a good child, sometimes at the expense of opening our minds to evidence, reason, and logic. We want to fight, prove the other wrong, shame them, silence them, even destroy them because their existence challenges our inner child's desire to feel that we are not bad.

It is wrong the way people treat others on this forum and in real life when you consider that people quickly ridicule the beliefs of someone who doesn't share their own. It's illogical because we don't know why the other person holds on to their convictions or exactly how the person understands the convictions. These types of behaviors are mere reactions, not thought-out responses.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

The Great Theophany is not spelled out in Scripture as much as it is repeated in Hebrew writ.

For instance, though Abraham has personal theophanies, this is followed up by the angel visitors that both Abraham and Sarah and their servants see and wait upon. Though Moses has a personal theophany at the burning bush, he leaves with signs to show the people and wonders to work upon Egypt before the exodus leads to the Great Theophany at Sinai. All the other prophets of Jewish history either work their wonders or give their oracles in public. This pattern is that of public theophany vs. the type of hidden wonders performed by Jesus (who tells people not to spread reports of him or chooses only a few people to perform miracles in front of) or private visions like claimed by Joseph Smith of the Mormons. The tenet is not a command from Scripture but was learned by the Jews' contact with YHWH over the centuries and is one of the reasons Jesus is not acceptable as the Messiah.

Davening can be repetitive, at least the form Orthodox Jews engage in. However the Name is not repeated or used in liturgy, and Davening is an official liturgical action so there is not even use of the Name in this practice. It is also not the "babbling like the Gentiles," although Protestants who abhor Catholic forms of prayer (simply due to anti-Catholicism) tend to ignore the "like the Gentiles" part and just concentrate on forbidding all use of repetition.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

Is the story of Job originally from and/or about someone in our culture? No definitive answer there. The book seems to describe Job as a Gentile, but some Jews point out that the same language used to identify Job is applicable to Hebrews.

Basically the book is seen as telling us that some answers lie beyond our grasp. Jews often see the book as paralleling the experience of the Holocaust and the WHY? that still lingers.

The book is not known for directly promoting Tikkun Olam, or making the world better, but it seems to do so indirectly. After the drama is complete and Job gets to hear from Heaven, Job's situation turns around. Job is either helped and helps himself to move on after asking "why," and sometimes we need to stop, realize there may be no answer to our questions and move on ourselves, learning to accept life on its own terms.

As for the Cohen brother's film, it is suggested by many that it is to be paralleled with the book of Job, but the filmmakers said it was really a look into the fears and paranoia of what it is like to be Jewish: Is G-d talking to me? Is G-d not talking to me? Does it really matter if I do something bad? Will G-d punish me if do? Nah, he is not like that...is he? Do I have my answers? Is this tornado my answer? Or is this just coincidental?

True, like Job there is no answer, but that's a lot like all of Jewry. Jews are known for answering questions with a question, didn't you know that?

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

And last, but not least, the most popular tune from the show:

http://youtu.be/CV9xF8CjhJk

You really thought me, a gay Jew, was being purposefully misogyonistic? Girl, please!

http://youtu.be/mNKEKlXY3Z4

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

And here is the song Pinot Noir from the same show. (Really a critically acclaimed top watched show, number 1 comedy sitcom in America, and it's about cults, and you never seen it?)

http://youtu.be/A6yttOfIvOw

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

Seriously people, what a hilarious vehicle that pokes fun at end of the world cults, and you never heard of it? Oppostate, really?

http://youtu.be/7Ac800ELs4U

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

I am surprised people on this board don't recognize the icon I am using or see the connection between that and what I am saying about the JWs by means of it and this popular comedy about how crazy cults can be.