Posts by CalebInFloroda

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@SecretSlaveClass

I would say you are right on target.

Of course you do have to consider that you are leaning heavily on concepts introduced via the New Testsment. A belief in the devil and demons are post-Tanakh (after the Hebrew Bible was composed), and their connection with illness appears to have come from Hellenistic influences.

There is also well-established exegetical theory that suggests New Testament references to "demons" in connection with health challenges may be partially idiomatic. It appears that sometime after the return from Babylon that a popular view among Jews of health problems drew connections from an attempt to explain them, either connecting them to sin, ceremonial uncleanness, or activity of demonic forces which was new to the scene. Stories like those found in the book of Tobit (which connects a demon to all types of problems) actually became popular in Jewish society. The New Testament message seems to not merely explain a power of Jesus over these types of "demons" but might suggest an exposure of this type of thinking as faulty.

In the end, there was no attempt by any Bible writers to employ a scientific explanation to lessons which were meant to be used for religious catechesis or designed to fit liturgical needs.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Perry

And again, a point which you seem with Watchtower-blindness to skip over and ignore, we Jews do not believe that our actions hold any merit with G-d or impress him or gain us salvation. I've said that before but you keep acting as if those words have never been written here on this thread by me.

JWs act the same you are doing, claiming that others don't know their own convictions as well as they, JWs do. Why are you going back to the same attitudes?

I think it great if you want to be a Christian, and despite anything I've written I also think it can bring you closer to G-d (it's not one thing or the other in Jewish thought). My religion teaches me it is wrong to claim that Christians "imagine" G-d into something that G-d isn't or that Christians embrace a theology that they clearly do not. Apparently your religion teaches differently.

Back to the subject at hand...the idea that the Biblical texts provide a literal model for the physical world creates more problems than they solve.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Flood stories in ancient Mesopotamian literature are a type of cosmogony-creation story. All cultures from that area believed that life and the elements of the universe came from a cosmic sea (there was no vacuum of space in their minds).

One cosmogony does not state that there was a "beginning" in the traditional sense. This particular model claims that life in our current world came from life of a previous world that was destroyed via a flood or collapse of the cosmic waters.

The details differ, but the gods (an essential element or "players" in the cosmogony) either warn a human of the coming deluge who contracts a vehicle to transfer himself and animals from the old world to the present or the gods do the tranfering themselves.

The Noachin flood is the third of three creation-origin stories emoloyed by the Hebrew people in their religious tradition. In it the "sin" of the previous world is wiped out to make room for the new, good, and holiness of the present. In this new paradigm animals are said to fear humans and carnivorous diets as said to begin, but this is due not to sin but due to sin being wiped away by the flood.

Of course the Bible is not saying that the world has seen three creations. The culture from which the Jews emerged shared these three cosmogony models in common, and each was employed in the prologue leading to the "history" of the Jewish people. If you note, the first 11 chapters of Genesis are filled with origin stories, but beginning with chapter 12 the type of narrative used changes dramatically with the call of Abraham. These origin stories are a deposit of the various traditions cherished by the Jews, not a literal history of the world in the chronological order in which they occurred.

The Noachin flood is just the last of the "creations" in this deposit before moving on to address the setting for the actual Torah which begins with the lives of Abraham and Sarah. The eating of animals by animals is seen as a nominal facet of this "new world" without sin after the "flood," but each of the three traditions are backdrops for a more important truth that comes with the Law, not in the creation stories themselves.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Post script for Perry:

One thing that might help you understand the stark differencs between the concepts you have as a Christian and that of the Jews is your mentioning serving "the G-d of the Bible."

That doesn't exist for Jews since we knew G-d before any of us put "pen to paper" to create even a stroke of a letter of what would eventually become the Bible.

Christians may believe in the G-d of the Bible, but Jews believe in the G-d of Abraham and Sarah, and we did this before there was a Bible.

We believed in G-d before the Ten Commandments were inscribed on stone.

We believed in G-d before G-d revealed the Torah to Moses.

Now it is a good thing to believe in the Bible and what you learn of G-d within its pages, don't get me wrong.

But the G-d of the Jews existed before the Bible and is not limited to the Bible. Thus our theological concepts can differ greatly. We are the people who knew about and worshipped G-d before there was a Bible, and we wrote the Book you put your faith in.

Scripture is the product of our religion, not its basis. The G-d we interact with is not found just in Scripture. At best, G-d is merely reflected in it, at least as Jews understand G-d.

So approaches and conclusions can only differ since you are basing you belief on what a book says about G-d, but we wrote the book based on our experiences. That is very different.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

Jews have never had either a doctrine of "Original Sin" or a doctrine of "salvation." What you are talking about is how Christians have reinterpreted (and in some cases mistranslated) certain Jewish texts.

But regardless of the interpretations or renderings, Jews still don't have such doctrines.

For instance, you mention "works" being advocated by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a requisite to salvation. Did you know that it is a misconception that Jews believe that works of the Mosaic Law can gain salvation?

It's simple:

a. Jews have no doctrine of Original Sin

b. Jews therefore see no need for gaining salvation

c. There is no such theological concept of "works" of the Law in Judaism

d. Obedience to the Law (or as we Jews call it, being Torah-observant) provides no merit

e. Ezekiel 18 declares that the sin of parents cannot be visited upon children and that an individual can repent of the wickedness and be judged righteous without any type of sacrifice

While I understand the Christian viewpoint and your need to explain your view, it still doesn't change the fact that what you believe is not what Jews or their Scriptures teach, which is the point I was making.

And besides, with all due respect, I was not trying to counter your beliefs as a Christian. It does not violate your views to declare that the Jews who wrote the Hebrew Tanakh had no concept of Original Sin or held to a theology of personal salvation since Christian belief is that such views were introduced by Jesus of Nazareth. That being so, it would be expected that no such declarations would be found in any immediate reading of any Jewish religious texts.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

I have to agree with both Introvert 2 and defender of truth.

Psalm 104 was clearly composed by someone reflecting on the visible world as normally witnessed by Semites. The writer never states that they have a special insight into the Creator's mind as to why things were so. On the contrary the psalmist limits the composition to facets of nature of quite a limited scope, one an Israelite of that ancient period could witness during their own lifetime.

Instead of fanciful mythology, the writer is very realistic in this instance. He applauds not the miracles described of in the New Testament but the miracles of the natural world. Even how lions capture their prey is attributed to G-d here as part of this "miracle," without any excuse for how "violent" this may appear or claiming that sin has somehow upset the balance of nature. On the contrary all this is good and contrasted with the way of sinners, which at the end of the psalm are requested to be removed from this scene of holiness which includes nature's circle of life and death.

5

Child Abuse- A universal problem -for example, in Pakistan

by fulltimestudent in

while the australian royal commission may be the focus of our attention at the moment, we should not forget that this is a much wider problem.

previous official investigations in australia (inquiring into church run homes for kids)have revealed horrible examples of abuse, as have similar investigations in canada and ireland.. and international news today reports on this mass incident in pakistan.

and if some may want to see this as a muslim problem, then please do a search and find that similar things happen in india.. the hongkong based asia times reports:.

CalebInFloroda

It happens despite the creed.

A good example is one of my best friends who was abused all through childhood until they were able to leave home at 17 despite reporting it to (and begging help from) aunts, uncles, cousins, teachers, coaches, school counsellors, a psychiatrist, two medical nurses, and three police officers during those years.

Among these were Christians, agnostics, atheists, and a Buddhist or someone practicing a nature-based form of religion. Schools, teachers, police and medical professionals all failed this person, as did the institutions and organizations they belonged to.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@fulltimestudent

You actually have Jewish theology behind you.

In Judaism there is no doctrine of "Original Sin," and therefore none of the texts in the Hebrew Scriptures were written with this view in mind nor can be honestly read with this doctrine as an intention.

Of particular interest is that Psalm 104 is a creation hymn, and recited/chanted as a daily prayer in Judaism each morning. Because of its connection with origins or beginnings, it is also recorded on Rosh Chodesh (New Moon) and gets used similarly in the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours in both Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism as part of their official daily prayers too.

As such the Psalm is a poetic description of the natural circle of life that includes both life and death as normal facets of creation.

14

Any LGBTs?

by BashfulAshG in

just curious...

CalebInFloroda

Jokingly, friends often say I'm a member of "Judy-ism" due to the stereotypical connections between gay men and Judy Garland...which often are not as stereotypical as one thinks.

But I guess I am labeled "G," though my friends and family never really raise the issue or bring it up anymore than they bring up dating, marriage, and sex regarding the straight people in my circle.

We do tell jokes sometimes, me and my gay friends, like the "Judy-ism" thing, but it is similar to the Jewish jokes me and my Jewish friends also tell. Outside of that and the times I've brought it up here, there is little more discussion in my life about being gay than straight people talk about being straight.

Times have changed so much, especially after the marriage equality thing, and now being "gay" doesn't make me so different or special among friends...

...unless we are talking about holding a party. It's still true that people would rather go to a party or dinner hosted by gays than by straights because it a scientific fact that gays hold far more fabulous parties. I believe that is also in the Bible too.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

One of the things necessary to understand is that what one is reading in the Jewish texts did not define Jewish society nor were the legends therein written as a moral compass for society of the past or present.

The Hebrew Scriptures were never the origin of the narratives therein nor were they the basis for the Jewish concepts which gave birth to monotheism. Jehovah's Witnesses employ a theology like this, but it is ignorant.

For the Jewish texts to be considered the basis of religion would mean they appeared miraculously, which they did not. The texts were never meant to be the basis or foundation for a religion like the JWs use it. These Scriptures are the product of a functioning religion, one that already had doctrines and practices and a liturgy that was pre-Biblical. Judaism wrote the Bible. The Bible was not the basis for Judaism.

Jews have never confined themselves to what is written in these texts (and it is apparent that some are merely speaking here of those that do). Speaking only for Judaism, the Jews defined G-d due to their experiences and what the concept would mean as times changed. The reason we are called the "children of Israel" is that our identity as a people is defined by our 'wrestling' with the "G-d concept."

This wrestling has advanced far beyond the simplistic views of a deity that rules from the heavens still adhered to by Christians. Embracing the concept of G-d includes atheism, agnosticism, and defining G-d in more humanistic and empirical ways as well as transcending these. The majority of Jews don't carry over literal interpretations of ancient texts into modern life as that would not be practicing religion...it would be tantamount to wearing a relic.

Denial comes in many forms. Sometimes it comes in ignorantly embracing ancient deity concepts and enforcing belief in these through hate-inspiring religions like the JWs, but sometimes it comes in being ignorant of texts that Gentiles have applied non-Jewish views to and mistakenly applying these non-Jewish concepts upon texts written by Jews, reflective of Jewish society, and written for Jews.

That's just as ridiculous as judging atheists by JW standards and theology. In ridding ourselves of JW theology we often have to "unlearn" ANYTHING we have been exposed to from them, even those concepts we now reject outside the Watchtower to ensure false ideas still do not play a part in the choices we make and the conclusions we arrive at today.