here is a quote that i found recently.
i would like you to read the following excerpt and guess where the quote is from:.
"gods people must be aware that they have a responsibility before god to respect, obey, and submit to his anointed servants .
Here is another quote from Enroth's book:
"Spiritually abusive groups routinely use guilt, fear, and intimidation as effective means for controlling their members. In my opinion, the leaders consciously foster an unhealthy form of dependency, spiritually and interpersonally, by focusing on themes of submission, loyalty, and obedience to those in authority."
- Churches That Abuse, pg. 109
many of you are aware that the account in acts chapter 15 regarding the jerusalem council has been used as a justification for the modern institution of the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.
according to the scriptural record as well as historical records, the evidence is very compelling that this council was made up of probably a hundred or so elders; to say the least.
it was very different from the modern institution of the gb, where only a small number of men meet in secret sessions.. here is my question to all of you.
Thanks for that link Atlantis.
I'll take a look at this site, it might be it. Thank You!
many of you are aware that the account in acts chapter 15 regarding the jerusalem council has been used as a justification for the modern institution of the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.
according to the scriptural record as well as historical records, the evidence is very compelling that this council was made up of probably a hundred or so elders; to say the least.
it was very different from the modern institution of the gb, where only a small number of men meet in secret sessions.. here is my question to all of you.
Many of you are aware that the account in Acts chapter 15 regarding the Jerusalem council has been used as a justification for the modern institution of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the Scriptural record as well as historical records, the evidence is very compelling that this council was made up of probably a hundred or so elders; to say the least. It was very different from the modern institution of the GB, where only a small number of men meet in secret sessions.
Here is my question to all of you. There was a Watchtower article sometime back that discussed the account at Acts chapter 15. There was an artist's illustration of the room in Jerusalem, and it showed the room as being quite full of elders. Some time later, the WTS had another article talking about the modern day GB. The WTS used the same illustration as before (as they often do) but they altered it. They took the original illustration (which showed a packed out room) and airbrushed over most of the men in the background so that the illustration only had about ten men in it (more in line with the modern day GB).
There is a website that has these two illustrations posted right next to each other. I am trying to figure out where I saw it. If anyone remembers where this was posted, please let me know where it is. I would like to share this on the forum. Thanks a lot.
i'll start it off, then someone else give them a different challenge if you can think of any.. please give definitive examples that by evolution, a species has changed into something else.
give two separate findings by scientists, and it can't include any comments like "so we believe", "so we conclude that", or "the evidence shows that there could have been".....the wts has those copyrighted.. try and give un-doctored photographic proof, where possible, etc.
by the way the hominid skulls and the like will not be accepted, transition has never been proven, i don't think, just that they are different, and scientists "believe", they are pre-homo-sapiens.. i'm not saying you won't have examples, we just want you to walk the talk.
Hey 5go
Very interesting reading. Thanks for posting all of this material.
many believe that defending the jehovah's witnesses or praising it for the accomplishments of the organization is idolizing the wt.
but aren't we really praising jehovah when we praise what the organization has accomplished.
perhaps someone does not follow their praise of the organization by saying how jehovah deserves the credit but no doubt many understand that that is to be assumed.
LOL at the comments on the thread.
whereami, off with your head!
i'll start it off, then someone else give them a different challenge if you can think of any.. please give definitive examples that by evolution, a species has changed into something else.
give two separate findings by scientists, and it can't include any comments like "so we believe", "so we conclude that", or "the evidence shows that there could have been".....the wts has those copyrighted.. try and give un-doctored photographic proof, where possible, etc.
by the way the hominid skulls and the like will not be accepted, transition has never been proven, i don't think, just that they are different, and scientists "believe", they are pre-homo-sapiens.. i'm not saying you won't have examples, we just want you to walk the talk.
Please give definitive examples that by evolution, a species has changed into something else. Give two separate findings by scientists, and it can't include any comments like "so we believe", "so we conclude that", or "the evidence shows that there could have been"....
I would tend to think that when scientists use cautionary language such as "the evidence shows", it reveals an intellectual honesty that is absent in dogmatic assertions. It seem that when any scientist comes out and asserts that they have undeniable "proof" of something, you get fiascos like the Piltdown Man.
Vinny:
I don't mean to be insulting or disrespectful. I know that I don't know you personally, but I must say that your outlandish and juvenile diatribes on this thread give Christians a terrible name. I am a Christian, yet do not consider myself a fundamentalist. I don't think that you have fully comprehended how you have come across to people on this thread.
I have seen several posters express how they are even more convinced that Christianity is a joke after observing your posts. I certainly am not condoning the insults and name-calling on the part of others either. But honestly, ask yourself how your constant talk of "spanking" and "trouncing" the other posters has made anyone feel more endeared to the teachings of Jesus.
I have observed that the most effective way to have these discussions (even disagreements) is to humbly point out where we disagree and coherently express what we believe without puting others down trying to moralize on the "sinfulness" of their personal beliefs. If the other parties refuse to have a respectful discussion, we can simply excuse ourselves from the debate. I am not attempting to judge you personally, I am merely judging the persona you have presented on this thread.
After watching this thread for the last few days, I certainly would not say that you have won any arguments. Why? Because anytime we throw away the qualities of rationality, civility, maturity, and dignity in an attempt to win an argument, we have already lost. Judging from the comments made by many posters (who feel further alienated from Christianity by the diatribes on this thread), I would say that nothing has really been won.
By the way, the constant "bwahahahahahahahahahaha" line reminds many of us of the Doctor Evil character from the Austin Powers movies.
many believe that defending the jehovah's witnesses or praising it for the accomplishments of the organization is idolizing the wt.
but aren't we really praising jehovah when we praise what the organization has accomplished.
perhaps someone does not follow their praise of the organization by saying how jehovah deserves the credit but no doubt many understand that that is to be assumed.
He is a 607 apoogist who caused a stir on this board last summer, most notably for claiming that the city of Tyre, built on the same site as ancient Tyre, which bears the same name as ancient Tyre, is NOT Tyre, as he believes that Tyre was never rebuilt.
I remember this well. Jeff, I would recommend that you go back and find this thread and look over it. It was actually comical.
AlanF and Leolaia were debating him on these points, and some of it was really funny. This was at the time of the war that had broken out between Hezbollah and the Israelies. Tyre was one of the spots that the Israeli miliatary was focussed on; as Hezbollah had a stronghold there. When thirdwitness tried to state that the prophecy about Tyre not being rebuilt actually came true, Leolaia quipped something to the effect of: "So I guess the Israelis are bombing a city that doesn't really exist."
The way that he tried to overcome all of this was actually funny to watch. It was like watching a child attempt to put a puzzle together by forcing a wrong piece into place by pounding down on it with their fist.
i sure tried to act spiritual in the beginning of my jw life.
i could go through the motions of being a good jw, but i just never could get turned on with being spiritual.i gave great talks and when i was an elder i could fill in for a no-show and never miss a beat.
however, my wife at the time always complained that we didn't do the family study or study the wt lesson ahead of time.
We have to remember that the Watchtower organization has instilled a warped mindset about what it means to be "spiritual".
Their deffinition of "spiritual" is different from Jesus' deffinitions. The WT organization puts emphasis on law keeping, or on conforming to organizational norms. Jesus taught that spiritual people would be those who would be conscious of their spiritual need, and then would manifest this by their character. How can you identify a "spiritual" person? Simple: "By their fruits, you will know them." Jesus identified the characteristics or outward signs of a "spiritual" person. It's very simple:
Taking all of this into consideration, I believe that there are JWs who despite not performing "organizational works", or not having any positions such as "pioneer", "elder", or "ministerial servant", are very spiritual people. By the same token, I have seen many JWs who have impressive positions who are not spiritual at all.
When we study Jesus' teachings about spirituality, we find a huge difference between being a "spiritual person", versus being a good "organizational person".
many believe that defending the jehovah's witnesses or praising it for the accomplishments of the organization is idolizing the wt.
but aren't we really praising jehovah when we praise what the organization has accomplished.
perhaps someone does not follow their praise of the organization by saying how jehovah deserves the credit but no doubt many understand that that is to be assumed.
If it is acceptable to give praise and allegiance to an organization, then it is equally acceptable for Catholics to give praise and allegiance to the Vatican. After all, despite it's problems, the Catholic Church has done many "fine works" such as building schools, hospitals, and engages is large charity projects. Catholics could reason that despite all of the "Catholic Church bashers" that try to detract from their organization, they will continue to be obedient to the Pope and focus on the "fine works" of their holy church.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
