Sa2ne

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Posts by Sa2ne

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  103

  No fabrication in Gospels

  by Shining One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.rzim.org/publications/jttran.php?seqid=52 .

  "what cannot be doubted is that many new testament critics have approached the gospels with an utterly unjustified skepticism--a skepticism that wouldn't be considered justified in any other branch of ancient history.

  new testament scholar r. t. france declares that "at the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the gospels as a source of information on the life and teachings of jesus, and thus on the historical origins of christianity.

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  Sa2ne

  So, your comparing a 747 to god? A 747 isn't deity that claims it is a "just and rightous" 747.

  That really has nothing to do with whether or not God/Jesus breaks his own physical laws (which was the point I was refuting).
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  103

  No fabrication in Gospels

  by Shining One in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  http://www.rzim.org/publications/jttran.php?seqid=52 .

  "what cannot be doubted is that many new testament critics have approached the gospels with an utterly unjustified skepticism--a skepticism that wouldn't be considered justified in any other branch of ancient history.

  new testament scholar r. t. france declares that "at the level of their literary and historical character we have good reason to treat the gospels as a source of information on the life and teachings of jesus, and thus on the historical origins of christianity.

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  Sa2ne

  The point that seems to be missing (or maybe just falling on deaf ears) regarding the martyrdom of early Christians is that some of those martyrs were directly in contact with Jesus himself. Some were his apostles. We're not talking about a big organization with a somewhat ambiguous leading group like the "governing body" or even a distant individual like the "prophet." These people walked with the very man making the promises. He always gave them a clear choice. Follow me and believe in me.....or don't. What's more, he carried with him the promise that he would defeat death. Now, had he not done this and failed to follow through with this promise, why would any of those who walked with him continue to hold to this belief to the point of death? The fraud would be clear and they would simply abandon their beliefs. I've never seen any evidence (or heard of any for that matter) suggesting that Jesus employed brainwashing to keep his followers.

  By the way, the WMDs did exist, as Sadaam used them on his own people. It would be difficult to use devices of fiction in that manner. So "mythical" probably isn't the best word, nor is that the best analogy.

  C'mon Rex, does god/jesus break his own laws?

  That example is no more an example of God breaking his own laws than flying in a 747 is an example of an airplane breaking the law of gravity.
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  18

  Misquoting Jesus

  by SickofLies in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  book review: the popular perception of the bible as a divinely perfect book receives scant support from ehrman, who sees in holy writ ample evidence of human fallibility and ecclesiastical politics.

  though himself schooled in evangelical literalism, ehrman has come to regard his earlier faith in the inerrant inspiration of the bible as misguided, given that the original texts have disappeared and that the extant texts available do not agree with one another.

  most of the textual discrepancies, ehrman acknowledges, matter little, but some do profoundly affect religious doctrine.

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  Sa2ne

  A review of the book:

  http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=3452
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  35

  my favorite apologist theory....

  by theinfamousone in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

  have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

  have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

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  Sa2ne

  sa2ne... i like you man... this is the first time ive, and probably many of the ppl on this board, have been able to hold a conversation with a creationist without it becoming an insult-fest... ; so thank you my friend...

  Well, I too am very refreshed by a civilized discussion. So, my thanks to you as well.

  now, back to the topic at hand.... youre right, i did hold my question to the realm of the "christian god"... this is for a few reasons.... first of all, it is the only god i knwo... so this is the god i can discuss... ; if you know of a better description of god, please share it.... i am very willing to hear, fo r i know not exactly what i think right now... i cannot say i am atheist to a tee, but i am agnostic... this god we believe in, or hear of, cannot be the god, or the only god... he is either far too cruel, or just lost in his own little world...

  I personally don't have a better way to express God than the Christian way, because I am a Christian. So, I'm perfectly happy using that perspective of God. As regards your position, whether atheist or agnostic, I can understand not being sure. I went through a period of time after leaving the borg that I wasn't sure where to go. Ultimately, I decided that I owed it to myself to fully research what mainstream Christianity had to say about God before making my decision. I have read and studied many apologetic books, articles, etc... I have also heard many of the typical atheistic arguments. In the end, I believe there is sufficient evidence for the existence of God. I believe there is sufficient evidence for the existence of Jesus, and for believing that He is God. But I guess we all get to make that decision for ourselves. Back to that free will thing. One thing I will tell you about my beliefs relating to a previous statement of yours is this:

  fuck free will... if he will fix everything, end the suffering, id rather have no free will than see children die every day of hunger, cancer, aids and so many other torturous ways of dying.. it isnt fair

  I believe that he will fix everything and end the suffering. And He will do so without compromising free will. That's my 2 cents.

  when speaking to a relionist (i made a word up didnt i?) we tend to get that exact same treatment.... ive been pitied, called stupid/losy/moronic/sinner and so many other names just for not believing in the god thatis presented to me... so, we are defensive, just as you are... it is a two way street that we both seem to be going the wrong way on... maybe its time to just listen and be nice...

  This is true. I have to say, I am ashamed when those professing to be Christian resort to insults when they have no answers. Especially when I believe there are plenty of answers out there. I do wish we could all have more civilized discussions. I imagine there would be a little less anxiety in the world. Anyway, thanks for being patient with me. It's been good talking to you.
• 
  35

  my favorite apologist theory....

  by theinfamousone in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a j-dub, or basically any hardcore bible thumper???

  have you ever brought up the fact that if he were so loving, god would not allow all the suffering we see on a day to day basis, never mind what the hungry children around the world are suffering?

  have u ever noticed what their responce will invariably be?.

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  Sa2ne

  First, define what is sin?

  
  sin 1 n.
  

  1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
  2. Theology.
  3. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
  4. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

  
  
• Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.




Who decides what sin is?




God


I would call it "evil" so right off the bat your metaphysical argument is based upon an erroneous a priori assumption based on pre-established cultural biases.

You are assuming that the "bias" is based on a pre-established human culture and not a divine moral law. Your premise is flawed. "Good and Evil" are not simply established by human cultures, or there would be no absolutes. Everything would be acceptable everywhere. The fact that so many of the moral laws are cross cultural lends to the fact that there must be an absolute moral law. For there to be an absolute moral law, there must be an absolute moral law-maker, i.e., God.



The original post is not limiting the argument to the mythical fairy tale of the garden of eden.

I never stated that it was. The original post did, however, limit the argument to the Christian realm:



have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a J-Dub, or basically any HARDCORE bible thumper???

JW's consider themselves Christians, and the only large religious group that can be affiliated with the bible is Christianity. Therefore, my arguments were based within a Christian perspective.



If god is responsible for the universe and all reality within it, he is responsible for the consequences of this "creation". By this rationale, "sin" was the creation of your god, just as was satan, free will, evil, good ,etc etc.

God created everything in the universe. Sin and evil are the absence of God. You cannot create cold. It is simply the absence of heat.



Second, define perfection?

per·fect
adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
6. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
7. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
• Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
• Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
• Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.

This is just a circular argument that has no logical conclusion or premise save for the circumscribed cultural mythos espoused by the bible you appear to accept as factual.

This statement made no sense. All you said was that I accept the bible as fact and you don't. Where else would you expect me to draw a premise and conclusion regarding Christianity and God except FROM the bible that I accept as factual?

This entire response is exactly what I came to expect the last time I regularly posted on this forum. It displays complete and utter hatred for Christianity and God, and the outlet for that hatred is a tone of condescension. I am fed up with many (although not all) Atheists and Agnostics who strut around on high horses pretending to be enlightened and far superior to the stupid believers who ignore science and reason. It's a position spoken from ignorance and completely unfounded. If any of you reading this are Atheists who do not hold to that MO, then kudos to you. I have met few.

Nonetheless, I respect your right to believe whatever you like.