I agree that is often easier to "prove" immorality or "loose conduct" than apostasy , which is often a rather nebulous ground to DF people for , so this may mask the statistics somewhat. I just don't see , on the ground , any dramatic increase in questioning or criticism. When the 1995 "generation" change happened , I was expecting some discord - it just didn't happen.
Posts by dozy
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16Apostasy or Immorality?
by jwfacts inthe watchtower used to say that most people got disfellowshipped for immorality.
do you think this is still the case?
it seems to me that i am hearing of as many people leaving over apostasy as over immorality, or am i just hanging out in the wrong circles?.
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Are JW taking advantage of so called "worldly" people?
by Truthissimple ini hope this is not offensive in anyway, but i have a freind whos jw and i have an idea of the concept of "worldly" people, this may sound stupid but i personally think that they "use" or take advantage of the worldly system of things.
not that i am a jw or have been one to know how it works, or what they are permitted to do.
but here is my question.
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dozy
I don't think witnesses condemn "worldly people" as such , but they do try to live in harmony with John 17 - being "in the world but no part of it". Any criticism applies to worldly conduct & values rather than the commercial system.
I know witnesses who design & build cars (quite a few work at the giant Nissan plant in NE England , for example) and many are musicians or singers (some quite high profile -George Benson / Shadows etc). Even those who wash windows or clean toilets have a stake in society & are performing a useful service , to the benefit of their fellowman.
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Apostasy or Immorality?
by jwfacts inthe watchtower used to say that most people got disfellowshipped for immorality.
do you think this is still the case?
it seems to me that i am hearing of as many people leaving over apostasy as over immorality, or am i just hanging out in the wrong circles?.
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dozy
From what I experience in my own cong & from speaking to COs & others , the overwhelming majority are still DFd for immorality (or more accurately porneia). According to our last elders school , the overwhelming number (over 80%) are DF'd on these grounds , with the balance made up mainly of smoking , drinking and other "conduct" grounds. There are still very few DF'd or DA'd for outright apostasy , although there does seem to be a small but growing number (especially among younger ones) who are studying about JWs online & coming to a conclusion that they either they don't want to be baptised or are fading.
Looking at the statistics for Scotland , out of 14K witnesses , only 5 posters are on the "UK Map". Not even all of these left for traditional "apostate" reasons. No doubt there are others who do not wish to be identified and many who don't post or associate with ex-witnesses , but this still makes up a tiny percentage.
I find in talking to fellow witnesses that peoples' devotion & loyalty to the Org is still very strong & few will talk openly about any doubts or issues.
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SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT re: Riley Trust Tobacco Compan Stock & WTS
by Oroborus21 ini have no interest in pontificating on this matter which to me seems so straightforward.
however, since i continue to see newbies and others periodically post in error stating that the wts "owns" tobacco company stock i believe that this should be corrected and the matter put to rest, hopefully for good.. .
facts:.
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dozy
"Dozy - then there's the 'still JWs' and proud of it, who can't see the WTBTS talking out of its backside, and wants to call any one with the sense to say, 'The Emperor's Got No Clothes on, ' a rabid apostate. They're the ones that really irritate me".
I wasn't characterising or grouping active witnesses - but I agree that there are many who fit that description - they irritate me as well. Even the most innocuous observation or comment is made to seem like a vile slur against "Jehovah's Organisation."
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Converting Muslims
by Dr Jekyll in.
there's a couple of posts on here tonight about a carton with dubs trying to convert a muslim terrorist and it got me thinking.. does anyone here personally know of any muslim converting and becoming a dub?
i imagine it must be a huge step for someone doing that, it goes against their religion and their ethnic cultures.
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dozy
Very very few religious Muslims who have become witnesses in the UK - numbers in the low teens. There are a couple in Glasgow where there are Urdu & Gujarati groups. When a Muslim becomes a witness these are often estranged from family - they sometimes have death threats for apostasy or are put on a plane back "home" , never to be heard of again. (And you think the JW disfellowshipping procedure is harsh!)
There are many more JWs who are secular Muslims or ex-"Christians" from a nominal Muslim cultural background - probably numbers up to 1000 (out of over 1 million Muslims in the UK).
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SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT re: Riley Trust Tobacco Compan Stock & WTS
by Oroborus21 ini have no interest in pontificating on this matter which to me seems so straightforward.
however, since i continue to see newbies and others periodically post in error stating that the wts "owns" tobacco company stock i believe that this should be corrected and the matter put to rest, hopefully for good.. .
facts:.
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dozy
From your comments & reading though other threads , there does appear to be a spectrum of ex-witness viewpoint & conduct with individuals putting themselves into various camps.....
(1) Classic "apostate" - Prepared to promote any allegation or claim (true or false) against the WTS. Bitter and obsessed with organisation even though he/she may have been "out" for years. Stands at assembly gates with placards and / or develops website & spam witnessing program.
(2) Passive "apostate" - Believes most (but not all) allegations. Not an active promoter.
(3) Neutral "ex-witness" - Reasonable , open to debate & occasionally wishes to speak positively about some aspects of JWs , but would never return. More likely to be a "fader" than DF.
(4) Reform "ex-witness" - Generally positive - disillusioned about certain aspects and disagrees with one or two doctrines / processes (eg Blood , 607 . shunning , UN).
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185
The Watchtower Society killed my website
by Elsewhere inyou can thank the watchtower society for this.. here is an email from my hosting company:.
unfortunately it appears your site/account was involved in violation of using copyrighted material involved with watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania.".
as a result of this abuse and activity, we will be unable to reinstate this account for any reason.. in addition, due to the nature of this abuse and the risk of transferring sensitive or illegal content if we were to provide you your files, we will be unable to provide with backups.. it is unfortunate that this has occurred, and we are aware that more than likely this was not your intent to host, however the fact remains it did exist and complaints were made.
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dozy
JWs ruined my dinner.
The WTS killed my website.
I'm just waiting for "Freddie Starr ate my hamster!"
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PAYPAL ACCOUNT SET UP FOR DONATIONS FOR LAWSUIT AGAINST THE WATCHTOWER
by SHUNNED FATHER inthankyou for wanting to help.
i believe i have a good chance of winning this lawsuit.
the watchtower lawyers are defendants and have tried three times to have the lawsuit thrown out and have failed.
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dozy
It must be fairly unique to the USA where someone can try & sue the lawyers of his opponents for damages - I've never hear of this happening in Britain. (Mind you - we do have 2 lawyers as Prime Minister & First Lady.) Overall - this is a desperately sad story - but I do feel that Mr Hughes's case is somewhat weak.
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Why do women make up the majority?
by daniel-p ini want to pose what is to me an interesting question: .
why is there a preponderance of women in religion?
i think we all agree that females do make up the majority of pretty much every religion, including jw's, but why?
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dozy
Broadly agree with reasons given - I also feel (without resorting to sterotypes) that women tend to be more sociable than men & are more inclined to build up numerous friendships "in the truth" that both act as an incentive to join and encourage one to stay.
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SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT re: Riley Trust Tobacco Compan Stock & WTS
by Oroborus21 ini have no interest in pontificating on this matter which to me seems so straightforward.
however, since i continue to see newbies and others periodically post in error stating that the wts "owns" tobacco company stock i believe that this should be corrected and the matter put to rest, hopefully for good.. .
facts:.
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dozy
In fairness , Eduardo , you are wasting your time here. Ex-witnesses / apostates are happy to spread this story which most of them know to be nonsense because it fits their needs and feeds their prejudices. As other posters have noted , this tactic actually backfires against opposers because any witness with a modicum of financial nous can quickly see through the invalidity of the argument & hence the temptation is to dismiss all other criticisms as lies originating from Satan. (Jn 8:44).Legitimate debate & criticism is something positive & the WTS could learn a lot from this. Sadly in the ex-JW "community" this is often clouded by a minority who act like classic apostates and who may meet the description in Mt 5:10-12 "Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since your reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you."