Are there any experiences of individuals who started to break away from the Jehovah's Witness organization through this last studying of the Revelation book? I had expected that there would be: the anachronistic references to the 20th century, the barmy and tenuous interpretations of the Bible pas sages, the number of changes that were made, and different people in the book study with different versions of the book. That book gave me nightmares as a child in the early '90s with all of its depictions of Armageddon.
stapler99
JoinedPosts by stapler99
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14
A question for you guys who edited your own "Revelation Climax (AntiClimax) Books
by Alpaca ini left in 1997 so i didn't enjoy the privilege of editing my personal copy of the book.. there was a thread on here a few years ago about it but i was left with the impression that it was just a few marginal notes.. now, on another thread there are comments about cutting and pasting stuff into the book.. just how extensive were the edits?.
i cannot believe the borg (sorry, yes i can) would direct such a bizarre exercise for publishers.
how many of you said wtf?.
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What is jw view on vanity publishing?
by badboy inhave they ever said anything about the subject?.
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stapler99
According to a wise king who lived many years ago, "Everything is vanity." So the scriptual view is that vanity publishing is acceptable, including publishing Watchtower publications.
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26
Roberts 'screwed up' oath of office
by Elsewhere inanyone who watched the oath of office administered to obama noticed judge roberts (mr. bush's buddy) screwed up the oath.. the man had one thing to do today and in classic bushy style, he screwed it up.
all the man had to do was read a few words but he just couldn't quite do it.. .
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/cnn_roberts_screwed_up_oath_of_0120.html.
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stapler99
The stumble was Roberts' fault, and not Obama's.
I object to the unconstitutional phrase "So help me God" being appended at the end. So much for separation of church and state!
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American Meteorological Society gives James Hansen it's top honor
by SixofNine inamerican meteorological society gives james hansen its top honor .
the american meteorological society awarded the countrys top climate scientist its highest honor, the 2009 carl-gustaf rossby research medal:.
for outstanding contributions to climate modeling, understanding climate change forcings and sensitivity, and for clear communication of climate science in the public arena.. .
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stapler99
Anthropogenic global warming is garbage.
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Whats unusual about an undergrad attending a prof/grad student party?
by tsunami_rid3r inso i've been hanging around the professional crowd for a while, its much more funner than hanging out with people my own age.
like tonight, i was the only undergrad at my prof's party.
it was cool too because i got to hang with my profs at a more chill setting.
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stapler99
If you get along fine with them I see nothing wrong with it. Why should you feel that there is something wrong with it? If there is some problem you have with associating with other undergraduates you should think about sorting it out, but generally I'd say just do what you think is best and try to be honest with yourself, and pay attention to your feelings and why you're doing things. That's all you can do really. I don't think there are definite rules about whom one should associate with, and there's nothing wrong with doing things slightly out of the ordinary.
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Could an active JW read this without blinking?
by besty ini'm not a big fan of huge ^c^v (cut and paste) posts but here goes..... i found this when i googled 'jehovahs witness landmark forum' - thats another post why i was doing that... http://www.ex-cult.org/general/identifying-a-cult takes about 3 minutes to read.... my question is 'could a jw read this and not even think 'is that us?''.
identifying a cult
there has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
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stapler99
(My comments were surrounded by '[b]' and '[/b]'. Sorry for the excess in posts.)
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18
Could an active JW read this without blinking?
by besty ini'm not a big fan of huge ^c^v (cut and paste) posts but here goes..... i found this when i googled 'jehovahs witness landmark forum' - thats another post why i was doing that... http://www.ex-cult.org/general/identifying-a-cult takes about 3 minutes to read.... my question is 'could a jw read this and not even think 'is that us?''.
identifying a cult
there has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
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stapler99
I'll try that again:
Yeah, but I'm afraid that's not how it works. JW's read such things through the lens of their beliefs, thus:
(PS I'm not sure if I'm using BBCode rightly here or whatever it is I'm meant to be using. Unfortunately there's no preview post option on this forum)
[quote="besty"]
IDENTIFYING A CULT
There has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so
easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this
reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually
is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know
little about their beliefs.
The different definitions:
SECULAR DEFINITION
CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is
involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude.
This definition actually denotes what we call denominations
and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.
[b]I've read this in the Watchtower before. Isn't it educational?[/b]
CHRISTIAN DEFINITION
[b]Don't you mean "profressed Christian" definition? Amirite? [/b]
CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox,
historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ;
His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to
earth and salvation by FAITH alone.
[b]We are true Historical Christianity. This article was obviously written by a fat clergyman of Christendom.[/b]
This definition only covers those groups which are cults
within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within
other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it
cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do
not recognize the Bible as a source of reality.
UNIVERSAL DEFINITION
CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian
leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming
from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be
the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full
Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform
or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their
members.
[b]Mind control? Like Satan's control of this system? JW's are truly the only ones free of such Satanic cult-like influences![/b]
This definition covers cults within all majopr world
religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS
religious base such as commercial, educational and
psychological cults. Others may define these a little
differently, but this is the simplest to work from.
THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT'
A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not
their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of
Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the
Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not.
Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have
behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic.
[b]Abusive, like those paedo Catholic priests? Am I not glad not to be involved in such things in Jehovah's organization![/b]
This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches.
These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian
faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or
someone's particular writings. They centre around the
interpretations of the leadership and submissive and
unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member
of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider
non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as
the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be
using mind control or undue influence on their members.
[b]Additional doctrines, like hellfire, life after death, or the existence of paid clergy? LOL![/b]
An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by
Dr Ronald Enroth.
Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based,
Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can
easily be identified.
OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS
(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to
others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT -
everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL -
everyone else is in apostasy.
[b]Well, don't you expect people to think their religion is right and others are wrong? What would be the point otherwise?[/b]
(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse
God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be
THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.
HOW THEY DO THIS
1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or
position of authority given by God.
2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance
regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and
exalting their own group, leader/s and work.
3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members
loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire
calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon;
being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital
part of the mind control process.
4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to
the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked);
signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive
methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed;
selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of
their "ministry".
[b]No collections at the meetings, unlike in the churches of Christendom![/b]
At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take
up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell
literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This
gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money.
5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its
teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the
group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for
themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is
also a vital part of the mind control process.
6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private
lives of members. This control can be direct through communal
living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true
Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to
their leaders for guidance in everything they do.
7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity
distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal.
[b]I think this article may be implicating us! But at least they admit we are "Bible-based"! Even they can't deny that![/b]
8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged.
Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an
emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission.
This is vigilantly maintained.
9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in
some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members
(including family) under the guise of looking out for their
"spiritual welfare".
They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or
give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.
10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may
be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that
involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by
this.
Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by
other members with coercion to get them to return to the
group.
SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:-
1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY
They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to
think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what
they are told.
2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY
Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children,
parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.
[b]But following the Bible's guidance strengthens families![/b]
3. ABUSE OF FINANCES
Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal
groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata,
not because of a lower income level, but because they are always
giving money to the group for some reason.
4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY
Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and
everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or
"unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends;
the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media
- the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any
way see such involvement as a "means to an end".
[b]No, we love the people in the world! That's why we spend so much time knocking on the doors trying to convert them so they don't die at Armageddon![/b]
5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY
The group controls and uses almost all the members time and
energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant
state of mental and physical exhaustion.
6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL
They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and
directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will"
actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it.
This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets
and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through
intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".
RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE
1. PERSONALITY CHANGES
Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person.
From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and
feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in
comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders.
2. LOSS OF IDENTITY
They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group.
Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life.
3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED
Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether
justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of
the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the
"true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an
individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they
will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because
they are "the only ones who are right".
4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION
They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can
go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple
decisions for themselves when they leave.
[b]We have plenty of social activity inside Jehovah's organization. People in the world don't have friends/[/b]
Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their
leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general.
5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES
They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering
the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal
life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a
constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt
comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or
questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.
This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly
being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be
seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as
proof of sin in your life - more guilt.
[b]Christ's ransom sacrifice takes away our sin and our guilt.[/b]
SUMMARY
Not all these points will be found in every cult, but
all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to
some degree.
[b]All true of all cults, and it's a pity that they seem to propagate the misconception that we're a cult. This false Christian writer has a hidden agenda against God's organization[/b]
Copyright 1985 Jan Groenveld
Freedom In Christ, PO Box 2444, Mansfield, 4122, Australia
[/quote] -
18
Could an active JW read this without blinking?
by besty ini'm not a big fan of huge ^c^v (cut and paste) posts but here goes..... i found this when i googled 'jehovahs witness landmark forum' - thats another post why i was doing that... http://www.ex-cult.org/general/identifying-a-cult takes about 3 minutes to read.... my question is 'could a jw read this and not even think 'is that us?''.
identifying a cult
there has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'.
-
-
stapler99
Yeah, but I'm afraid that's not how it works. JW's read such things through the lens of their beliefs, thus: (PS I'm not sure if I'm using BBCode rightly here or whatever it is I'm meant to be using. Unfortunately there's no preview post option on this forum) [quote="besty"] IDENTIFYING A CULT There has been much confusion about cults and how to 'pickem'. Some have difficulty identifying a cult because it is not so easy to identify one that is not even religious. For this reason, over the years, different definitions of what actually is a cult have developed to make it easier when you know little about their beliefs. The different definitions: SECULAR DEFINITION CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a cult. [b]I've read this in the Watchtower before. Isn't it educational?[/b] CHRISTIAN DEFINITION [b]Don't you mean "profressed Christian" definition? Amirite? [/b] CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone. [b]We are true Historical Christianity. This article was obviously written by a fat clergyman of Christendom.[/b] This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality. UNIVERSAL DEFINITION CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. [b]Mind control? Like Satan's control of this system? JW's are truly the only ones free of such Satanic cult-like influences![/b] This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from. THE 'ORTHODOX BIBLE-BASED CULT' A group is called a cult because of their behaviour - not their doctrines. Doctrine is an issue in the area of Apologetics and Heresy. Most religious cults do teach what the Christian church would declare to be heresy but some do not. Some cults teach the basics of the Christian faith but have behavioural patterns that are abusive, controlling and cultic. [b]Abusive, like those paedo Catholic priests? Am I not glad not to be involved in such things in Jehovah's organization![/b] This occurs in both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic churches. These groups teach the central doctrines of the Christian faith and then add the extra authority of leadership or someone's particular writings. They centre around the interpretations of the leadership and submissive and unquestioning acceptance of these is essential to be a member of good standing. This acceptance includes what we consider non-essential doctrines e.i. not salvation issues (such as the Person and Work of Christ.) The key is that they will be using mind control or undue influence on their members. [b]Additional doctrines, like hellfire, life after death, or the existence of paid clergy? LOL![/b] An excellent book on this subject is "Churches that Abuse" by Dr Ronald Enroth. Using these guidelines of definition, Bible-based, Psychological, Educational and Commercial aberrations can easily be identified. OTHER IDENTIFICATION MARKS (a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy. [b]Well, don't you expect people to think their religion is right and others are wrong? What would be the point otherwise?[/b] (b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL. HOW THEY DO THIS 1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. 2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding the Christian church while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work. 3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process. 4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry". [b]No collections at the meetings, unlike in the churches of Christendom![/b] At the same time bible-based cults may ridicule churches that take up free-will offerings by passing collection plates and/or sell literature and tapes. They usually brag that they don't do this. This gives outsiders the intimation that they are not interested in money. 5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process. 6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do. 7. Bible-based cults may proclaim they have no clergy/laity distinction and no paid ministry class - that they are all equal. [b]I think this article may be implicating us! But at least they admit we are "Bible-based"! Even they can't deny that![/b] 8. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained. 9. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for their "spiritual welfare". They may be required to deliberately lie (heavenly deception) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment. 10. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this. Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group. SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:- 1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told. 2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered. [b]But following the Bible's guidance strengthens families![/b] 3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. In non-communal groups, members usually live at the lower socio-economic strata, not because of a lower income level, but because they are always giving money to the group for some reason. 4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends; the Christian church; governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement as a "means to an end". [b]No, we love the people in the world! That's why we spend so much time knocking on the doors trying to convert them so they don't die at Armageddon![/b] 5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion. 6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including low protein diets and lack of sleep, or over a period of time through intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt". RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE 1. PERSONALITY CHANGES Relatives will say they no longer recognize the person. From a warm, loving personality will come heaped abuse, rejection and feelings of hate. The cult member sees himself as "righteous" in comparison and this comes across in their attitude toward all outsiders. 2. LOSS OF IDENTITY They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their name as a rejection of their former life. 3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true Christian" or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right". 4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or make simple decisions for themselves when they leave. [b]We have plenty of social activity inside Jehovah's organization. People in the world don't have friends/[/b] Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general. 5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES They are made to feel guilty of everything they did before entering the group and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself. This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Illness may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Emotional illness may be seen as proof of sin in your life - more guilt. [b]Christ's ransom sacrifice takes away our sin and our guilt.[/b] SUMMARY Not all these points will be found in every cult, but all cults will have some if not most of them, although these may vary to some degree. [b]All true of all cults, and it's a pity that they seem to propagate the misconception that we're a cult. This false Christian writer has a hidden agenda against God's organization[/b] Copyright 1985 Jan Groenveld Freedom In Christ, PO Box 2444, Mansfield, 4122, Australia [/quote]
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Does anyone have a scan of the handwritten page from the Elders book?
by jwfacts ini think it is page 143. i am particularly interested in copies that have notes on how to deal with pedophilia
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stapler99
There was a collection online of letters sent to bodies of elders somewhere a while ago. I believe it contained the letter making this modification to the Pay Attention book. If it's still online and someone can remember the link then you will be able to get more definitive evidence than a handwritten marginal note. (I recall though that what the letter said wasn't as shocking as what the marginal note seemed to say - although I can't remember exactly what either said. I've seen a PA book with somewhat tidier emendations which had a slightly different meaning to the ones posted here.)
I don't think there are any great secrets in these secret books, they're too widespread for that.
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52
My wife says "They miss you at the Hall"
by OnTheWayOut inshe comes home with "sis.
curious says she misses you.".
"tell her i am right here, a phone call away.".
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stapler99
It may be that sometimes such expressions said by JW's are true. For me it was nice to see someone at the hall who hadn't been for a while. Somehow others sitting in the hall listening to the meeting was gratifying, it was as if by going to the meeting they were affirming their friendship with those in the congregation, although I know this is a sick form of friendship. If not for the meetings one would never see those who go, and if another ceased to go it would be as if he no longer existed. Seeing such at the meetings is as a resurrection from death.