Well.
You guys can no longer associate with me.
I got d/fed.
Deacon
JoinedPosts by Deacon
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Hey, Deacs.......How's it Going?
by ISP indeacon.....if you didn't know is the cross hairs of the local suited guys in shades, ala matrix.....and is to have a tete a tete with 3 of them.. you have our support, deacon.. isp
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Deacon
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8
Evolutionists having to fight for the theory.....
by Deacon inevolutionists battle new theory on creation.
by james glanz.
salvatore c. dimarco jr. for the new york times .
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Deacon
Francoise et al,
It indeed should be labeled with a health risk warning....
However for those of us who like academia, nay who forsook the hallowed privelege of pioneering eternally, er...or for the most part of this life, and went to college or university...it is necessary to drop in other opinions once in a while to re-establish our own contact with reality and current thinking.
All theories are really a postulation of an opinion, and a progression made along a path to establish or refute the premise upon which the study is being conducted.
Modern understanding of evolutionary paths..lead me to conclude a concurrence with the biblical "explanation" of life...
I have a great respect for a lot of the minds and thinking of members of this board...and for those like larc, janh and java, frenchie etc...and even myself, who have studied details....it is so refreshing to discuss the comments negatively or positively, but always without blind faith.
A reference was posted to where the material was culled, however..it did not appear on the screen, courtesy of the JAVA box I was using....apologies for that.
and you are so right....it was extremely tedious and boring....
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8
Evolutionists having to fight for the theory.....
by Deacon inevolutionists battle new theory on creation.
by james glanz.
salvatore c. dimarco jr. for the new york times .
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Deacon
Evolutionists Battle New Theory on Creation
By JAMES GLANZ
Salvatore C. DiMarco Jr. for The New York Times
An originator of a theory on life that challenges Darwin's theory of evolution, Dr. Michael J. Behe argues that various biochemical structures in cells could not have been built in a stepwise Darwinian fashion.
When Kansas school officials restored the theory of evolution to statewide education standards a few weeks ago, biologists might have been inclined to declare victory over creationism.Instead, some evolutionists say, the latter stages of the battle in Kansas, along with new efforts in Michigan and Pennsylvania as well as in a number of universities and even in Washington, suggest that the issue is far from settled.
This time, though, the evolutionists find themselves arrayed not against traditional creationism, with its roots in biblical literalism, but against a more sophisticated idea: the intelligent design theory.
Proponents of this theory, led by a group of academics and intellectuals and including some biblical creationists, accept that the earth is billions of years old, not the thousands of years suggested by a literal reading of the Bible.
But they dispute the idea that natural selection, the force Darwin suggested drove evolution, is enough to explain the complexity of the earth's plants and animals. That complexity, they say, must be the work of an intelligent designer.
This designer may be much like the biblical God, proponents say, but they are open to other explanations, such as the proposition that life was seeded by a meteorite from elsewhere in the cosmos, possibly involving extraterrestrial intelligence, or the new age philosophy that the universe is suffused with a mysterious but inanimate life force.
In recent months, the proponents of intelligent design have advanced their case on several fronts.
In Kansas, after the backlash against the traditional biblical creationism, proponents of the design theory have become the dominant anti- evolution force, though they lost an effort to have theories like intelligent design considered on an equal basis with evolution in school curriculums.
¶In Michigan, nine legislators in the House of Representatives have introduced legislation to amend state education standards to put intelligent design on an equal basis with evolution.
¶In Pennsylvania, where biblical creationists and design theorists have operated in concert, state officials are close to adopting educational standards that would allow the teaching of theories on the origin and development of life other than evolution.
¶Backers of intelligent design organized university-sanctioned conferences at Yale and Baylor last year, and the movement has spawned at least one university student organization — called Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness, or the IDEA club — at the University of California in San Diego.
The Discovery Institute, a research institute in Seattle that promotes conservative causes, organized a briefing on intelligent design last year on Capitol Hill for prominent members of Congress.
"They are skilled in analyzing evidence and ideas," said Representative Tom Petri, a Wisconsin Republican and one of several members of Congress who was a host at the session in a Congressional hearing room. "They are making a determined effort to attempt to present the intelligent design theory, and ask that it be judged by normal scientific criteria."
Polls show that the percentage of Americans who say they believe in creationism is about 45 percent. George W. Bush took the position in the presidential campaign that children should be exposed to both creationism and evolution in school.
Supporters of Darwin see intelligent design as more insidious than creationism, especially given that many of its advocates have mainstream scientific credentials, which creationists often lack.
"The most striking thing about the intelligent design folks is their potential to really make anti-evolutionism intellectually respectable," said Dr. Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, Calif., which promotes the teaching of evolution.
Dr. Adrian Melott, a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Kansas in Lawrence and a member of Kansas Citizens for Science, a group that helped win the restoration of evolution to the state education standards, said the design theory was finding adherents among doctors, engineers and people with degrees in the humanities.
Intelligent design is "the language that the creationists among the student body tend to use now," Dr. Melott said.
One of the first arguments for the design theory was set out in "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution" (Simon & Schuster, 1996), by Dr. Michael J. Behe, a professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania. Dr. Behe argued that various biochemical structures in cells could not have been built in a stepwise Darwinian fashion.
Since then, the movement has gained support among a few scientists in other disciplines, most of them conservative Christians.
"I'm very impressed with the level of scientific work and the level of scientific dialogue among the leaders of the design movement," said Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, an astronomer at the University of Washington in Seattle. The theory "warrants further research," Dr. Gonzalez said.
Leaders of the design movement also look for flaws in evolutionist thinking and its presentation, and have scored heavily by publicizing embarrassing mistakes in prominent biology textbooks.
"There is a legitimate intellectual project here," said Dr. William Dembski, a leading proponent of intelligent design who has a doctorate in mathematics from the University of Chicago and who is on the faculty at Baylor, which receives a small part of its financing from the Texas Baptist Convention. "It is not creationism. There's not a commitment to Genesis literalism."
Dr. Dembski conceded that his interest in alternatives to Darwinian theory was partly brought on by the fact that he is an evangelical Christian, but he said intelligent design could withstand strict scientific scrutiny.
"The religious conviction played a role," he said. But he added, "As far as making me compromise in my work, that's the last thing I want to do."
Evolutionary biologists maintain that the arguments of intelligent design do not survive scrutiny, but they concede that a specialist's knowledge of particular mathematical or biological disciplines is often needed to clinch the point.
"I would use the words `devilishly clever,' " said Dr. Jerry Coyne, a professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, speaking of the way the theory is constructed. "It has an appeal to intellectuals who don't know anything about evolutionary biology, first of all because the proponents have Ph.D.'s and second of all because it's not written in the sort of populist, folksy, anti-intellectual style. It's written in the argot of academia."Despite that gloss, Dr. Leonard Krishtalka, a biologist and director of the University of Kansas Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center, said recently, "Intelligent design is nothing more than creationism dressed in a cheap tuxedo."
Dr. Dembski said his rather vague doubts about Darwinism did not take scientific shape until he attended an academic conference in 1988, just after finishing his doctoral thesis. The conference explored the difficulty of preparing perfectly random strings of numbers, which are important in cryptography, in computer science and in statistics.
One problem is that seemingly random strings often contain patterns discernible only with mathematical tests. Dr. Dembski wondered whether he could devise a way to find evidence of related patterns in the randomness of nature.
Dr. Dembski eventually developed what he called a mathematical "explanatory filter" that he asserted can distinguish randomness from complexity designed by an intelligent agent. He explained this idea in "The Design Inference" (Cambridge University Press, 1998).
Dr. Dembski has applied his explanatory filter to the biochemical structures in cells — and concluded that blind natural selection could not have created them.
But in a detailed critique of Dr. Dembski's filter theory, published in the current issue of the magazine The Skeptical Inquirer, Dr. Taner Edis, a physicist at Truman State University in Kirksville, Mo., said that while Dr. Dembski's mathematics were impressive, his analysis was probably detecting only the complexity that evolution itself would normally produce.
"They have come up with something genuinely interesting in the information-theory arguments," Dr. Edis said of intelligent design theorists. "At least they make an effort to get rid of some of the blatantly fundamentalist elements of creationism."
Dr. Behe, whose book provided the biochemical basis for Dr. Dembski's work, said he believed that certain intricate structures in cells, involving the cooperative action of many protein molecules, were "irreducibly complex," because removing just one of the proteins could leave those structures unable to function. If the structure serves no function without all of its parts, Dr. Behe asks, then how could evolution have built it up step by step over the ages?
"I don't think something like that could have happened by simple natural laws," he said.
Most biologists disagree.
"It's flat wrong," said Dr. H. Allen Orr, an evolutionary geneticist and professor at the University of Rochester. Dr. Orr said that cell structures might have been put together in all sorts of unpredictable ways over the course of evolution and that a protein added might not have been indispensable at first, but only later, when many more proteins were woven around it.
"The fact that that system is irreducibly complex doesn't mean you can't get there by Darwinian evolution," Dr. Orr said.
Exactly how a designer might have assembled cell structures, say, is a question seldom addressed by design theorists. But they point out that Darwinists cannot necessarily offer detailed, step-by-step sequences of events for them either.
Dr. Behe, Dr. Dembski and Phillip E. Johnson, a professor emeritus of the law school at the University of California at Berkeley, are regarded as the intellectual fathers of the design theory movement. Mr. Johnson's book "Darwin on Trial" (InterVarsity Press, 1991) has become its manifesto. The book focuses on what Mr. Johnson says are the difficulties Darwinian theory has in explaining the fossil record.
Until last fall, Dr. Dembski was the director of a center at Baylor that was dedicated to the study of intelligent design theory. After complaints from other Baylor faculty members, the center's focus and leadership were changed, and it now includes design theory as well as other philosophical, theological and scientific topics.
Dr. Dembski and Dr. Behe are fellows of the Discovery Institute, the Seattle research institute that promotes intelligent design in its Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture.
The center's $1.1 million annual budget is supplied largely by Christian foundations that broadly endorse the implications of the intelligent design theory, said Bruce Chapman, Discovery's president. Mr. Johnson is an adviser to the institute, he said.
The center, which reaches people through books, articles, lectures and local activism, "is going to be of interest to academics," Mr. Chapman said. "But it's also going to be of interest to people in a more grass- roots situation because they're teaching science or because they're on a school board somewhere."
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Deacon
Anyone know what happened to Frenchie?
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Stigmata & the Lost Saying of Jesus
by ShaunaC inmorning guys!
hope you all had an enjoyable weekend!.
i just watched the movie "stigmata" last night.
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Deacon
The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer
These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."
2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
4 Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."
5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."]
6 His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."
7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
8 And he said, The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!
9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure.
10 Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes."
11 Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.
The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. During the days when you ate what is dead, you made it come alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."
And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."
14 Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.
When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.
After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."
16 Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to casy peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.
17 Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"
Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
19 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.
If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you.
For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."
20 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."
He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.
21 Mary said to Jesus, "What are your disciples like?"
He said, They are like little children living in a field that is not theirs. when the owners of the field come, they will say, "Give us back our field." They take off their clothes in front of them in order to give it back to them, and they return their field to them.
For this reason I say, if the owners of a house know that a thief is coming, they will be on guard before the thief arrives and will not let the thief break into their house (their domain) and steal their possessions.
As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you, for the trouble you expect will come.
Let there be among you a person who understands.
When the crop ripened, he came quickly carrying a sickle and harvested it. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!
22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
23 Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and they will stand as a single one."
24 His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it."
He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."
25 Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."
26 Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."
27 "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."
28 Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.
But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."
29 Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.
Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."
30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."
31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't cure those who know them."
32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."
33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops.
After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."
34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a bind person, both of them will fall into a hole."
35 Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."
36 Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about your clothing--] what you are going to wear. [You're much better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin.
As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who might add to your stature? That very one will give you your garment.]"
37 His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"
Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample then, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."
38 Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear them. There will be days when you will seek me and you will not find me."
39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."
40 Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father. Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will perish."
41 Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they have."
42 Jesus said, "Be passersby."
43 His disciples said to him, "Who are you to say these things to us?"
"You don't understand who I am from what I say to you.
Rather, you have become like the Judeans, for they love the tree but hate its fruit, or they love the fruit but hate the tree."
44 Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."
45 Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit.
Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."
46 Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his eyes should not be averted.
But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize the kingdom and will become greater than John."
47 Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.
And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor the one and offend the other.
"Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine. Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it might spoil.
An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a tear."
48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."
49 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."
50 Jesus said,
"If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'
If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'
If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"
51 His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?"
He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."
52 His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you."
He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."
53 His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?"
He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."
54 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's kingdom."
55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."
56 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."
57 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them." For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned.
58 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the person who has toiled and has found life."
59 Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."
60 He saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea. He said to his disciples, "that person ... around the lamb." They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it." He said to them, "He will not eat it while it is alive, but only after he has killed it and it has become a carcass."
They said, "Otherwise he can't do it."
He said to them, "So also with you, seek for yourselves a place for rest, or you might become a carcass and be eaten."
61 Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."
Salome said, "Who are you mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."
Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father."
"I am your disciple."
"For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."
62 Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my] mysteries.
Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."
63 Jesus said, There was a rich person who had a great deal of money. He said, "I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing." These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that very night he died. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!
64 Jesus said, A person was receiving guests. When he had prepared the dinner, he sent his slave to invite the guests. The slave went to the first and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said, "Some merchants owe me money; they are coming to me tonight. I have to go and give them instructions. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master has invited you." That one said to the slave, "I have bought a house, and I have been called away for a day. I shall have no time." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said to the slave, "My friend is to be married, and I am to arrange the banquet. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me from dinner." The slave went to another and said to that one, "My master invites you." That one said to the slave, "I have bought an estate, and I am going to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. Please excuse me." The slave returned and said to his master, "Those whom you invited to dinner have asked to be excused." The master said to his slave, "Go out on the streets and bring back whomever you find to have dinner."
Buyers and merchants [will] not enter the places of my Father.
65 He said, A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said, "Perhaps he didn't know them." He sent another slave, and the farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and said, "Perhaps they'll show my son some respect." Because the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!
66 Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the keystone."
67 Jesus said, "Those who know all, but are lacking in themselves, are utterly lacking."
68 Jesus said, "Congratulations to you when you are hated and persecuted;
and no place will be found, wherever you have been persecuted."
69 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who have been persecuted in their hearts: they are the ones who have truly come to know the Father.
Congratulations to those who go hungry, so the stomach of the one in want may be filled."
70 Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."
71 Jesus said, "I will destroy [this] house, and no one will be able to build it [...]."
72 A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me."
He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?"
He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"
73 Jesus said, "The crop is huge but the workers are few, so beg the harvest boss to dispatch workers to the fields."
74 He said, "Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but there is nothing in the well."
75 Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."
76 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply of merchandise and found a peal. That merchant was prudent; he sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.
So also with you, seek his treasure that is unfailing, that is enduring, where no moth comes to eat and no worm destroys."
77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."
79 A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore you and the breasts that fed you."
He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the breasts that have not given milk.'"
80 Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy."
81 Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce ."
82 Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom."
83 Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."
84 Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"
85 Jesus said, "Adam came from great power and great wealth, but he was not worthy of you. For had he been worthy, [he would] not [have tasted] death."
86 Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but human beings have no place to lay down and rest."
87 Jesus said, "How miserable is the body that depends on a body, and how miserable is the soul that depends on these two."
88 Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'"
89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"
90 Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."
91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment.
92 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.
In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not seeking them."
93 "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."
94 Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."
95 [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather, give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."
96 Jesus [said], The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!
97 Jesus said, The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along] the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty.
98 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one.
99 The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my Father's kingdom."
100 They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."
He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."
101 "Whoever does not hate [father] and mother as I do cannot be my [disciple], and whoever does [not] love [father and] mother as I do cannot be my [disciple]. For my mother [...], but my true [mother] gave me life."
102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."
103 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."
104 They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."
Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone? Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people fast and pray."
105 Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."
106 Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."
107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety- nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'
108 Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."
109 Jesus said, The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either. He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing, [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished.
110 Jesus said, "Let one who has found the world, and has become wealthy, renounce the world."
111 Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your presence, and whoever is living from the living one will not see death."
Does not Jesus say, "Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy"?
112 Jesus said, "Damn the flesh that depends on the soul. Damn the soul that depends on the flesh."
113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
[Saying added to the original collection at a later date:] 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
Scholars Version translation of the Gospel of Thomas taken from *The Complete Gospels: Annotated Scholars Version.* Copyright 1992, 1994 by Polebridge Press. Used with permission. All rights reserved.
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I-CHING, U-CHING, We ALL-CHING, CHING
by Farkel inin a post below i noticed that your posted was edited twice:.
: i hope this helps you make your decision.. :i-ching.
: edited by - fred hall on 22 march 2001 15:41:40. : edited by - iching on 22 march 2001 15:47:44. care to explain what happened here?
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Deacon
Dear Farkel,
sigh....
you need to lighten up....
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I-CHING, U-CHING, We ALL-CHING, CHING
by Farkel inin a post below i noticed that your posted was edited twice:.
: i hope this helps you make your decision.. :i-ching.
: edited by - fred hall on 22 march 2001 15:41:40. : edited by - iching on 22 march 2001 15:47:44. care to explain what happened here?
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Deacon
ahah!
LOL
Edited by - FRED HALL on 22 March 2001 15:41:40
Edited by - ICHING on 22 March 2001 15:47:44
Edited by - Farkel on 54 March 12001 16:45:04
Edited by - Deacon on 22 March 2001 20:53:59
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Reasons and Questions....
by Deacon ini read very carefully isp and farkels's comments regarding why people stay/leave the organisation.
in writing that sentence, im very aware of the influence of being a member from childhood....41 years worth, behind me.. both contributors made excellent informative points from their singular perspective, although opposite in view, the parallel was on the same axis, therefore just extremes of the same understanding, sort of left and right of the same line so to speak....but it made sense to me and gave me time to think about reasons..... i am still a jehovahs witness.
no, i dont go to meetings, no i dont go out in the ministry, no i dont associate with other jw's....but the upbringing, the regimentation, the responsibilities, the mental regulating of 41 years has coded me to think, react and do in accordance with the actions of being a jw..... this is something that will take a long time, if ever to remove, and its a hard job deciding what needs to be removed, not all of the training was bad.. i still believe in jehovah.
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Deacon
Ok..you can have your present today....
(fast learning husband class)
Edited by - Deacon on 16 March 2001 23:23:4
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Reasons and Questions....
by Deacon ini read very carefully isp and farkels's comments regarding why people stay/leave the organisation.
in writing that sentence, im very aware of the influence of being a member from childhood....41 years worth, behind me.. both contributors made excellent informative points from their singular perspective, although opposite in view, the parallel was on the same axis, therefore just extremes of the same understanding, sort of left and right of the same line so to speak....but it made sense to me and gave me time to think about reasons..... i am still a jehovahs witness.
no, i dont go to meetings, no i dont go out in the ministry, no i dont associate with other jw's....but the upbringing, the regimentation, the responsibilities, the mental regulating of 41 years has coded me to think, react and do in accordance with the actions of being a jw..... this is something that will take a long time, if ever to remove, and its a hard job deciding what needs to be removed, not all of the training was bad.. i still believe in jehovah.
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Deacon
one other thing. Its my wifes birthday today. Both of us skirted round the issue...sort of a brief hug etc...the indoctrination goes deep for both of us...
But anyway..I just want to say honey that Ill buy you a present another day..not on your birthday....LOL
But any day of the week, i love you to pieces...and thank you for being my wife...XXXXX
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Reasons and Questions....
by Deacon ini read very carefully isp and farkels's comments regarding why people stay/leave the organisation.
in writing that sentence, im very aware of the influence of being a member from childhood....41 years worth, behind me.. both contributors made excellent informative points from their singular perspective, although opposite in view, the parallel was on the same axis, therefore just extremes of the same understanding, sort of left and right of the same line so to speak....but it made sense to me and gave me time to think about reasons..... i am still a jehovahs witness.
no, i dont go to meetings, no i dont go out in the ministry, no i dont associate with other jw's....but the upbringing, the regimentation, the responsibilities, the mental regulating of 41 years has coded me to think, react and do in accordance with the actions of being a jw..... this is something that will take a long time, if ever to remove, and its a hard job deciding what needs to be removed, not all of the training was bad.. i still believe in jehovah.
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Deacon
I read very carefully ISP and Farkels's comments regarding why people stay/leave the Organisation. In writing that sentence, Im very aware of the influence of being a member from childhood....41 years worth, behind me.
Both contributors made excellent informative points from their singular perspective, although opposite in view, the parallel was on the same axis, therefore just extremes of the same understanding, sort of left and right of the same line so to speak....but it made sense to me and gave me time to think about reasons....
I am STILL a Jehovahs Witness. No, I dont go to meetings, No I dont go out in the ministry, no I dont associate with other JW's....but the upbringing, the regimentation, the responsibilities, the mental regulating of 41 years has coded me to think, react and do in accordance with the actions of being a JW....
This is something that will take a long time, if ever to remove, and its a hard job deciding what needs to be removed, not all of the training was bad.
I still believe in Jehovah. I still believe in an earthly paradise, I still believe in biblical standards regarding morals, I still believe in a people for his name....
Im not sure about when, Im less than convinced about the anointed, it would seem unlikely that so many false hopes, so many misleadings over the past 100 years would have been allowed by a creator....so much lack of humility collectively by the GB....so much power play....the change in direction re generation in '95 blew me away...but it wasnt unexpected...lots of other things too, but we all have our private thoughts on certain matters...
I stayed for such a long time because of the book of Jude...I believed it wholeheartedly, I saw evidence of it, and consequently TOTALLY DISMISSED all negative thoughts for 38 years re: whether it all made sense or not...and I would not have left even now except for circumstances....and taking advantage of that circumstance, I made a decision to dissapear from the scene.
Im on my own now..away from the influence and conscience of JW's...but not free from my upbringing...I still pray to Jehovah, daily for guidance as to what to do..I pray for direction as to where to go for spiritual sustenance, I still worry about the future..armageddon and all that...I still feel that the moral code has to be applied, but I no longer have an opinion on others consciences about it...
I cant sit here and use terms like "the borg" comfortably...I have respect for the integrity of the people and the beliefs they hold...but I dont have to agree or fight them.
I no longer am sure as to the biblical interpretion of blood tranfusions...but Im fairly comfortable that what I decide to do would be done with a God oriented conscience...be it right or wrong in others eyes....he has to judge me on that anyway...
And finally...it would be true to say that I dont know if Ive made the right decision in leaving.....my faith is that he will direct me...forward...or back...either way, there doesnt seem to be a wrong choice for where Im at....