dedalus

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Posts by dedalus

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  90

  Williams sisters

  by Phil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently having a discussion with a jw on the extent to which the williams family are jws.

  his statement was that only the mother is a jw.

  papa?

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  dedalus

  This is an example of the absolute mindlessness of some people on this forum.

  LDH wrote:

  It's not about "witness angst"--it's about the blatant hypocrisy which can potentially ensnare even MORE unsuspecting victims.

  Labeling the Williams sisters "blatant hypocrites" seemed a bit extreme to me, so, after more discussion had transpired, I responded:

  LDH, those quotes only tell me that the Williams sisters are Witnesses. We already knew that. The disparity between their public image and the strictures of their fundamentalist cult is a problem for Witnesses, maybe for them, but not for me! The most I would admit is that there is an apparent disparity. I would not therefore conclude them to be hypocrites. Rash judgment of individual character is one of the hallmarks of the religion I've abandoned.

  It should be obvious to anyone who can read that I am talking about the attitude of certain posters toward the Williams sisters.

  LDH responded:

  PS--as for the "rash character judgement"--no, I've had the pleasure of working with these ladies on a daily basis for almost a year.
  

  I would hardly call keen and repeated observation "rash character judgement"--but that's just me.

  Here LDH is talking, not about the Williams sisters, but about some pain-in-the-ass Witnesses who, in fact, have nothing to do with the Williams sisters or even tennis. Her remark makes no sense at all, yet she feels smug and smart enough to add a good dose of sarcasm at the end.

  This problem is endemic to the board, and I'm sick of it. TJ and LDH are so wrapped up in their idiotic insults to each other that neither can coherently follow the thread of the discussion (I no longer use the word "argument" -- on this board there is simply too much empty genuflection before that word).

  Dedalus
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  61

  So, for all you fans of big fat books (like, say, Harry Potter) ...

  by dedalus in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  who among you is reading east of eden, oprah's book club selection?

  (because, of course, reading is no fun unless there's a huge corporate media conglomerate backing you up ...).

  is it just me, or do any of you think it's strange, almost disturbing, to see a bunch of people, almost entirely pre-or-post menopausal women, waving this book over their heads, screaming with the same sort of unbridled glee exhibited on, say, a drabby-housewife-makeover episode?.

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  dedalus

  Well, what can I say? As promised, I'll be watching Oprah come discussion time, though any observations I make will be shallowly dismissed, as they have been in this thread. Meanwhile, this is a dead topic; only funkyderek picked up on what I was saying.

  My frustration with this thread is also my frustration with this board: few people bother to understand the views to which they so vehemently object, or even keep their objections relevant to the topic at hand.

  Dedalus
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  9

  classification

  by Phil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i guess i should celebrate my new classification "advancement" from "newbie" to "junior" member.

  i will pop open a bottle of champagne for dinner.

  salut.

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  dedalus

  You obviously don't play tennis.

  Dedalus
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  61

  So, for all you fans of big fat books (like, say, Harry Potter) ...

  by dedalus in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  who among you is reading east of eden, oprah's book club selection?

  (because, of course, reading is no fun unless there's a huge corporate media conglomerate backing you up ...).

  is it just me, or do any of you think it's strange, almost disturbing, to see a bunch of people, almost entirely pre-or-post menopausal women, waving this book over their heads, screaming with the same sort of unbridled glee exhibited on, say, a drabby-housewife-makeover episode?.

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  dedalus

  My interest in (obsession with?) this topic didn't occur in a vacuum ... does anyone remember the Oprah-Franzen controversy of 2001? She picked his book, he seemed uncomfortable being selected, and there began a controversy not unlike what's been on this thread.
  

  A really good website about it all is here: http://www.complete-review.com/quarterly/vol3/issue1/oprah.htm

  An except:
  

  The Oprah-website (Oprah.com) devoted a few pages to The Corrections when it was announced as the latest selection for Oprah's Book Club in September 2001. One of the pages offers an introduction to and description of the book, with a final sentence that sums up:
  

  Richly realistic, darkly hilarious and deeply humane, it confirms that Jonathan Franzen as one of our most brilliant interpreters of American society and American soul.

  The typographical slip (or grammatical mistake, whichever you prefer) -- as rather than is, or a superfluous that -- is their mistake. It still reads that way in late January 2002, some four months after this page was first posted. No one has cared to correct the mistake -- indeed, no one seems to care at all.

  This small mistake -- and the failure to make any correction -- seems indicative of this whole bizarre affair, where so little attention is paid to detail, where words really don't matter. All that matters is: Oprah !. All that matters is: Franzen. All that matters is: books sales. All that matters is: the triumph of personality over substance (because personality sells and substance doesn't).

  A book was selected for Oprah's Book Club -- The Corrections. This book is what should be the center of attention. Instead, attention is focussed on two personalities and on what they say and what they represent. There are accusations and labels: elitism, snobbery, the "high art literary tradition", populism, implied (and actual) endorsements, and much more.

  The books benefits: people hear about it, people buy it (though some react by also making a point of not buying it). Maybe people actually read it. But the argument -- the many confused arguments -- swirl elsewhere.
  
  Jonathan Franzen walks around with his foot apparently firmly lodged in his mouth. Oprah Winfrey doesn't deign to comment.

  The book continues to sell; perhaps that is all that matters. It seems there really is no such thing as bad publicity. Intentionally or not, Franzen hit the mother lode.

  But there are costs and consequences. Not for Franzen: despite the stink around him he can laugh all the way to the bank. He never has to write a word again, never has to worry about money. And if he does want to write another novel, every major publisher would want a chance to publish it. Unassailable Oprah, too, isn't much affected by these events; indeed, there has hardly even been a word of criticism regarding her actions.

  The losers ? Books. Readers. Literature -- if there still is such a thing -- and literary culture.
  
  It's a bad thing that happened here, and people don't seem to realize how bad.

  Dedalus
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  90

  Williams sisters

  by Phil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently having a discussion with a jw on the extent to which the williams family are jws.

  his statement was that only the mother is a jw.

  papa?

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  dedalus

  update your 80's hairstyle

  I liked the 80's. Remember Andre Agassi's hair at the end of that decade?

  Dedalus
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  61

  So, for all you fans of big fat books (like, say, Harry Potter) ...

  by dedalus in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  who among you is reading east of eden, oprah's book club selection?

  (because, of course, reading is no fun unless there's a huge corporate media conglomerate backing you up ...).

  is it just me, or do any of you think it's strange, almost disturbing, to see a bunch of people, almost entirely pre-or-post menopausal women, waving this book over their heads, screaming with the same sort of unbridled glee exhibited on, say, a drabby-housewife-makeover episode?.

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  dedalus

  Now we're getting somewhere!
  

  Lisa, I've never been psychologically deconstructed like that before. In fact, I'm slightly creeped out. Let me see ... I dislike the popularity of Oprah's book club because I suffer a sort of ... post-traumatic stress disorder ... after being made to read the Organization's literature (the Revelation book in particular, I'm sure). Is that it? Incredible! Maybe in a PM you can help me sort through all of the adolescent angst I'm still carrying around for my father?

  Seriously, Lisa, I don't think that's it, but you may be onto something: for whatever reason, I may distrust whatever is popular. Or, I may be one of those guys -- snobs, whatever -- for whom the reading and writing of fiction is so important, I become frustrated when literature is treated with anything less than religious reverence.

  (Parenthetically: If it helps, if it matters, if you're interested, here's my online book list at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/1W0C7PWFOABV9/ref=cm_aya_lm_title.more/103-6175895-9706202 Why my wife's name is on this, I have no idea.)

  I absolutely DARE you to go ahead and read East of Eden again and watch the Oprah program with the discussion. You said it was a good book, right? What, are you chicken?

  You've got it! In fact -- believe it or not -- I've just now registered at Oprah.com and am an official book club member (much to my surprise, Oprah admits cynical twenty-something males into the club -- who knew?). I looked around for an air date, but didn't find one. Still, I work at a television station that airs her show (the same television station that formerly employed Gayle King, Oprah's best friend), so I'll be able to see it, or obtain a tape if I'm not working and miss it.

  Now, if it's silly, you have to let me make fun of it! (Rubbing hands together, cackling evilly)

  Dedalus

  P.S. Edited to add:

  All I could find in that big long post of yours is that you don't like it because it is popular:

  I do think I was saying at least a little more than that ...
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  61

  So, for all you fans of big fat books (like, say, Harry Potter) ...

  by dedalus in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  who among you is reading east of eden, oprah's book club selection?

  (because, of course, reading is no fun unless there's a huge corporate media conglomerate backing you up ...).

  is it just me, or do any of you think it's strange, almost disturbing, to see a bunch of people, almost entirely pre-or-post menopausal women, waving this book over their heads, screaming with the same sort of unbridled glee exhibited on, say, a drabby-housewife-makeover episode?.

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  dedalus

  Of course, what I meant was women who are at about that age, mid-to-late forty-somethings

  Ded: You said this I AM NOT MID-To-Late forty-something nor is my daughter THAT WAS MY POINT. So, I was on topic. You make an asinine remark like pre- or post-menopasul and then have the audacity to be rude to me, because you didn't like what I said.

  I said it of women who were in Oprah's TV audience, Sheila. I didn't say it of you or your daughter. I didn't say it of any woman who wasn't in Oprah's studio that day.

  It's not that I necessarily disliked what you said. I simply noted its irrelevance to what I'd written.

  Funny, I meet with a book group and a writer's group all who have Masters degrees or Doctorates. They aren't thumbing their nose at this bookclub.

  Good for them. How about what I wrote, though? I have a few degrees myself, if that makes my remarks any more relevant to you.

  I'm not, as you put it, thumbing my nose at the bookclub. Really, I'm not. I am trying to understand what's going on in America as a result of it. Oprah and the classics and a bunch of tote bags are all in the same boat together. It's a bizarre mix.

  I didn't accuse you of not being well-read. It is because you are well read that I consider your opinion important. I'm just hoping there's more to your opinion than "all reading is good." The thing I'm trying to discuss in this thread is more complicated than that, to me anyway.

  Dedalus
• 
  61

  So, for all you fans of big fat books (like, say, Harry Potter) ...

  by dedalus in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  who among you is reading east of eden, oprah's book club selection?

  (because, of course, reading is no fun unless there's a huge corporate media conglomerate backing you up ...).

  is it just me, or do any of you think it's strange, almost disturbing, to see a bunch of people, almost entirely pre-or-post menopausal women, waving this book over their heads, screaming with the same sort of unbridled glee exhibited on, say, a drabby-housewife-makeover episode?.

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  dedalus

  First Lisa posted:

  Encouraging people to read great literature (eduacating, really) and raising money for charity: whats wrong with that?

  My above post, though directed at Sheila, answers that, rather thoroughly and at least somewhat thoughtfully. Lisa's response is:

  All I can say about the above post is..whatever.

  Why? Don't get it? Disagree with it? Don't like discussions about these types of things? Is this how Oprah's book discussions generally go? Dedalus
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  7

  Pagel's latest "Beyond Belief"

  by Panda in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  elaine pagel's recent work beyond belief, the secret gospel of thomas gives some excellent examples of questioning what we have been taught and looking into all of the interesting historically "hidden" books of christianity.

  i especially appreciated her explanations of why so many interesting writings never made it into the sanctioned bible.. what i got from this book was that power is/was the road to acceptance.

  the leaders of the church who were accepted by the emperor (read that as constantine) got to manipulate the holy writings into their own form.

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  dedalus

  My wife gave me The Gnostic Gospels for father's day, and it's quite good. Like you, Panda, I find it fascinating to read about a whole society of people whose views and writings were supressed so thoroughly that their history is unknown to virtually all Christians today (you know, the church-going variety). I like the Gnostic idea that one cannot know Christ by looking outward, toward religion, but by looking inward. Faith through private introspection -- better, in my book, than faith through dogmatic doctrine. Not that I'm Gnostic, or even Christian.
  

  I have a copy of the Gnostic Gospels, but was not aware that she had published a second work.

  Actually, Navagator, this is not her second work. Amazon.com can list a bunch for you.

  Dedalus
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  90

  Williams sisters

  by Phil in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was recently having a discussion with a jw on the extent to which the williams family are jws.

  his statement was that only the mother is a jw.

  papa?

  1. 
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  dedalus

  How depressing, Jourles! I'm so unnoticed on this thread!

  Dedalus