Posts by dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

You once again pose some good questions.

None of which you have acknowledged, much less attempted to answer.

I have studied the Bible for about 30 years. I also teach and write bible studies for adults. I have read many other books on philosophy and religion as well as books on evolution and creationism. I also recently spent a lot of time studying the Koran to see what the other third of the world thinks.

What is this? Proof that God exists? Material for your resume? Am I supposed to be impressed? I suppose that, with all this knowledge, you should be able to answer at least one of my "good questions."

Being a rational person, I accept very little that is not logical and reasonable.

You accept the existence of a God who is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent, three qualities that cannot coexist in the same deity without raising some pretty serious questions, questions whose "solutions" defy logic and reason and rationality. Since you're so learned, I won't bother expounding on those questions -- of course, even if I did, you wouldn't address them.

My conclusion based on the evidence presented is that the existence of God is both rational and logical.

What evidence? I'm still waiting.

Furthermore, Jesus life, death, and resurrection is a matter of historical record.

I am aware of no objective, credible, third person confirmation of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection as represented in the Bible (and you are, of course, conveniently ignoring everything I've written here about the God of the Old Testament -- or do you consider that massive chunk of the Bible altogether unimportant?). It would have been a simple matter for you to name some of your sources here, but you haven't, even with all that fancy book learning you've been up to.

There are some who may dispute the records.

Some?

But an objective look at the historical documentation of this event gives ample evidence of the historical accuracy of the Bible.

What historical documentation? I'm still waiting for you to name your sources!

Can I prove any of this to you? No.

If you admit you cannot prove any of this, you need to stop using words like "proof" and "facts" and especially "truth." You are permitted to use words like "believe" and "opinion" and especially "faith." But Christians like you seems to prefer the heft of the former set of words -- I wonder why?

Jesus once said "even if a man rises from the dead, they will not believe".

Yeah, that's real nice. Does it prove that God exists? Or that you don't want to have a real discussion if you can't write a warm and fuzzy Christian play about it later?

He did, and most didn't.

You just admitted that you can't prove any of this.

For those who have already drawn their conclusions, no amount evidence will sway their opinions.

This is a classic copout, and I get it every time. "A person convinced against his will if of the same opinion still -- so to hell with you!" Well, just because I've come to my own conclusions does not mean that you'd be wasting your time assembling for me a credible argument, presenting a shred of objective, rational, conclusive evidence. Believe me, I'd like to hear it, especially if I haven't before.

But for those who are searching for God and the truth about him, the evidence is there for their examination and their evaluation.

Let me rephrase this: If you want to believe in God, you will believe in him. That's basically what it boils down to. And there you go throwing around the word "truth" again! Whatever are you referring to? And what's the evidence?

God will show himself to those who sincerely seek him.

Is this your objective, rational "evidence" -- the subjective spiritual experience of the individual? Were is the overwhelming "proof" of this statement? And how does God "show" himself? Warm fuzzies again?

Josh McDowell (who once was an atheist himself) explores the objectivity of Christianity in several of his books including "Evidence that Demands a Verdict". He does a far better job then I could presenting facts that support the rational basis for belief in God and in the Bible. If you a truly interested in seeing an objective look at the other side, then get the book, read it, and then discuss your conclusions.

Christ, I have to read a 750-page book before I can reply to you? You're going to let a third-rate Christian apologist do your dirty work for you? Yes, I'm truly interested in seeing an objective look at the "other side," and perhaps you can start by answering one of my questions that you think is so "good," instead of referring me to shoddy scholarship of the sort I know too well from my own reading. Maybe next you'll want to compare diplomas? Are we playing academic poker now?

To my knowledge, no one ever answered Hume. If we're going to hit the books, let's start there, or at least with someone whose work is more widely acknowledged.

Regarding your other questions, I could give you answers.

You could? Really? Terrific! WHEN

But I think it's time to ask some questions of my own.

But you haven't answered a single one of my own!

I believe I have been fair and straightforward with you in responding to your issues even though you may disagree with my answers.

By your own admission, you haven't answered any of my questions. I don't know what your answers are, so I don't know if I'd disagree with them or not.

Would it not be fair if I asked some questions of my own and got your response?

No, actually it's not fair, since you haven't answered squat!

So, unless you intended this to simply be a one-sided discussion, here's some things I'd like to know about you:
1. If a person could provide evidence that God existed, what evidence would you accept as "proof"?

How about if he "showed himself to me," like you said, or better yet, showed himself to everyone, so I wouldn't think I was delusional? What if he did something to prevent the death of innocent children and the spreading of disease? Or, since this is the Christian God were talking about, what if he publicly apologized for his bad behavior in the Bible? Or all of the above?

But all this is moot. You want me to say that there is no evidence that would satisfy me, thereby excusing yourself from the argument altogether. Which is actually just another example of you covering the fact that you have no rational, objective, reasonable proof, no "truth" in any meaningful sense of the word.

2. What is your specific complaint about your fundamentalist upbringing? What specifically turned you "off" about Christianity and moved you in the direction of becoming an atheist?

If you want an idea about the sort of religion I was exposed to all my life, read around on this forum, and maybe you'll get an idea. Not that it is in any way relevant to our discussion -- if you can even call this a discussion.

You may respond to my e-mail address if you find you don't wish to share your answers in this forum.

Good to know.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

My patience is running out, Pipsqueak. But here I go anyway --

Dedalus, I believe it is time for a little vocab lesson.

What great words do you wish to teach me, oh learned one?

Do you know what an atheist is?

Do you? The author of the play says Jason isn't an atheist. You, his biggest defender, say that Jason is an atheist. So far, you're in agreement with me, not your brother in faith.

Well, compare it to a monotheist and and a polytheist. Monotheists say that there is one God (Christians would be in this category). Polytheists say that there are many Gods (such as many Native American religions), and then we come to atheists.

What does this have to do with anything?

Atheists do not believe in God. This is the definition from the world book dictionary: "Atheism: The belief that there is no God."

Of course, you fumble over the distinction between belief and absence of belief. Some atheists make a big deal about that, but never mind -- let's keep it simple for you.

If you think that "our God" is a tyrant, then you are stating that he exists because you can't give a non-existent thing a characteristic )such as being moronic or tyranical).

I think that, in ancient Greek epic poetry, the gods (yeah, gods, because the Greeks were POLYTHEISTIC, see!) are capricious, narcissistic, concupiscent (there's a vocab word for you, ha ha!) and often quite tyrannical. Whoa, look what I did -- I just assigned characteristics to deities we both would agree don't and never existed! How did I do that?

As a fictional character in the Old Testament, your God is a royal fucking asshole. That doesn't mean I think he actually exists. As a fictional character, I don't like him, just like I don't like the cardboard characters in Dick's play. As the son of fundamentalists, this affected me in a very real way -- so it's not just an abstract puzzle for me. I'm invested in the fiction that was real to them, so much so, it's a wonder I don't go on one of those atheist killing sprees.

Secondly, if you don't believe in Him, then why should my belief in Him bother you? After all, wouldn't I only be doing harm to myself in believing something YOU believe is false?

Your belief per se doesn't bother me. Your unsupported religious assertions bother me. The fact that you can express your faith with such blind certainty bothers me. The fact that you blithely pass over the complications of believing in the God you believe in, the fact that you apparently haven't read very carefully the book in which you stake your existence and by which you judge others, bothers me. You haven't once addressed my assertion that the God of the Bible is immature, wrathful, that he ordered his people to rape virgins, kill children, wipe out benevolent tribes. You just putter along, talking about "truth" without even trying to explain what you mean in any substantial way.

Now, in response to your claim that Mr. Lentz's play is NOT about an objective truth - I believe it is.

Believing in a thing does not make it so.

Jason rejected the truth and refused to accept it.

WHAT TRUTH?

Therefore, the fact that Jason did not believe or accept this truth had no affect on the truth still being true. Do you see what I'm saying?

Are you aware of the concept that words are linguistic signs with fixed referents behind them? So what does the word "truth" signify? What is the value of the word "truth"? Is it that God exists? Is it that we must all smother ourselves in the warm wet bosom of Christ? If that is objectively "true," how do you "prove" it?

Of course, I don't expect anything from you. Christians like you never get it. There is a way to understand and express religious faith, even Christian faith, that is to me profoundly moving and significant and impressive, though I can't share in it myself. But you don't get it, and I'm not going to explain it to you, you who should know better.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

POST SCRIPT

Dedalus, you asked "what is truth?". I can tell you something about truth. It is objective. It is absolute. And most importantly, that which is true is true whether the general populus, or a mere individual, believes it or not. Truth cares not for people's opinions.

Well, that certainly isn't the message of the play you're defending!

As Katie travels from class to class, she discovers man's answers to some of her questions. In History, she hears that studying history can help her master the world she lives in. In Biology, she observes an experiment that illustrates the belief that life originated from a primordial pool as the result of a 'cosmic accident'. And in Philosophy, she listens as students debate options for making moral decisions.

So, as I've already stated, according to this play, whatever "truth" is, we evidently should not look to the past for examples of it, or attempt to measure and qualify it objectively, or contextualize it according to the world in which it supposedly exists. This passage, in fact, takes a very derisory tone toward any objective analysis of "truth."

Evidently "truth" is just a warm and fuzzy feeling you get by blindly following the people who claim to have it.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

Lentz wrote:

Someone asked about truth. The truth is this: God does exist. He also loves us. He wants to have a relationship with us that results in a fulfilling life. He also wants us to spend eternity with Him.

Okay, prove that God exists. Prove it. If you can't, you have to stop using the word "truth," and the word "fact."

But an objective look at the historical evidence validates that Jesus existed, that he claimed to be the son of God, that He died on a cross, and that He rose from the dead. These facts and these facts alone validate that Jesus is the only means to bring us back to God and redeem us from our fallen natures.

What is the historical evidence? Where are the independent, objective corroborations of the Bible accounts? Be specific, I'd like to know.

Also, I want to echo Detective's question: in the Bible, God orders men to murder other men all the time. How is this possible, if one can only murder after one has rejected God? Why is God, especially God of the OT, such a bloodthirsty, wrathful, quick-to-anger kind of God, anyway?

Compactmowse wrote,

It's a play.

No shit.

The characters are fictional.

But based on real life ones.

If you believe that those characters are symbols of their respective "groups", then feel free to include yourself in one.

That's the point. I'm an atheist, and as such I am very much misrepresented in the play. Yes, I think the Christian God you and Lentz peddle is a monster, a moron, a tyrant. I resent the way your type of nonsensical religious babble has affected my own life, and I resent the brainless devotion this tyrant sky-God is given.

But I've not committed any atrocities in anyone's name -- I'd never murder anyone. None of the atheists I know are very keen on murder. Yet Christians, as a collective historical group, pretty much have the market on mass murder and tyranny. Something about their religion seems to demand it.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

It seems to me, Dedalus, that you are ignoring the fact that the character "Jason" is angry and arrogant AND an atheist.

Better check with Mr. Lentz on that -- he told me that the fact was, "Jason" is NOT an atheist.

My original statement regarding this was that Mr. Lentz has written a modern day morality play. As such, the characters are meant to stand in for everyone in their group. Morality plays aren't meant to be subtle; indeed, Mr. Lentz's play is about as subtle as an anvil.

That is not to say that all atheists are angry and arrogant, but in this case, the FICTIONAL character of "Jason" is angry, arrogant, etc.

It is fine for a text to posit a fictional character who has all these qualities. But it cannot be said that that text has a sophisticated understanding of the views it attempts to represent. Does the play give any good reason for Jason's anger and arrogance? It seems quite clear to me that he is angry and arrogantbecause he is an atheist. If he hadn't rejected God, none of this would have happened.

ALso, in this case, it is due to his rejection of the truth.

What "truth" is that?

The contradiction that "Katie" mentions is referring to the fact that as an atheist, Jason does not believe there is a god. In saying that he hates God, he is suggesting that there IS a God to hate. Therefore, he is contradicting himself by acknowledging a God that he claims does not exist.

Yeah, I get that, and it's not a new point. This is an irony, not a contradiction, but at least we're in the same ballpark. My problem with the play is that this "irony" or "contradiction" is never probed, examined, explored. Instead, Jason starts killing people. If the play had explored this irony, it probably would have discovered that Jason doesn't hate God per se. Of course, in the hands of Mr. Lentz, there are only two possibilities: as an atheist, Jason must either convert, or go on a killing spree.

You should read the essays posted by Expatbrit. If you're too dense for that, skip to the parts in bold.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

I also belive that most of the people involved in this discussion or incredibly unfamiliar with Mr. Lentz's play and the message that it communicates.

Oh we or, or we?

That's why a huge chunk of his website is posted right at the front of this very thread. I've personally read every page of Lentz's website, and yet he accuses me of misunderstanding his character "Jason," who isn't, he asserts, an atheist. Yet his website says of that character:

But Katie also meets Jason Holmes, a rebellious, arrogant, angry young man who hates God and those who believe in Him.

Why would Jason hate people for believing in God, since he believes in God himself? Isn't the intelligent conclusion, based on this, that Jason doesn't believe in God?

Then there's this lovely tidbit:

JASON: (He pushes Katie away, and holds the bible up) "This book represents everything I hate about Lisa........and GOD!!!!"
KATIE: (confused) "I thought you didn't believe in God."
JASON: "I DON'T!!"
Jason is infuriated. He's been caught in a contradiction and knows it. He throws the bible on the floor at Katie's feet. Katie picks up the bible, then looks at Jason.

Is it possible to hate a fictional character? Sure! So what's the big "contradiction?

Anyway, if I shell out $5.00, I can be treated to the entirety of Lentz's play and the "message that it communicates." But I think I've got the picture.

So how do you know so much about it, compactmowse?

Dedalus

21

Shocking WT pictures! (9-11 lookalikes)

by Alleymom in

jw
friends

i think these pictures are horrible!.

http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/wt_evil.html.

marjorie

dedalus

I agree w/ bboyneko.

Dedalus

80

A sickening example of religious vampirism

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the link below leads to a webpage for a play entitled it's not too late: a christian drama/musical inspired by the columbine tragedy.. here is the synopsis of the play:.

the story takes place during one day at a high school.. .

mr. brooks is the custodian of the high school.

dedalus

Excellent point of comparison, Detective!

O'Connor's works are nuanced, ambiguous, troubling, complex, and true to some aspect of our actual experience -- and even though I disagree with her "faith" (to use a rather reductive word for it), I find her stories utterly enthralling.

I suppose it's in some ways unfair to hold Dickelentz up to O'Connor's standards. But, even without the comparison, Dickelentz's play is shallow and trite -- or, to be fair, the synopsis and bried excerpt on his website is.

Also, Dickelentz's claim here that his character believes in God but rejects him is not clear from the information available to us (and I'm not about to PAY for the rest of the script!). A person who rejects God in any meaningful sense of the word does not believe in Him. People who reject God do so because they realize that His existence, especially in the Christian mold Dickelentz casts Him, is so fundamentally absurd that it is highly questionable at best.

So, I suppose I reject God, the same way I reject the tooth fairy -- I have no particular grudge against either of them, since I believe them not to exist. But, I can say, if the God of the Bible could be proven to exist, I'd reject him anyway. He's a fucking asshole -- sending bears to devour children, having His chosen people divide between them the captured virgins of benevolent tribes, throwing temper tantrums whenever His puny human creations fail to satisfy his erratic, arbitrary, bloodthirsty whim.

There is a point in Dickelentz's play where Jason (the killer) throws a Bible in the trash and declares that it's all lies. Well, he might have said "mostly lies," and he would have been right enough. It's hardly a legitimate motivation to go on a killing spree.

And Mr. Dickelentz still hasn't answered the original charges of religious vampirism.

Dedalus

44

Do JW's Actually Believe This Stuff?!?

by Mister Biggs in

this was just forwarded to me.. (we need more comets to help take all of the stupid people away from among us!).

this comes from the branch in canada....... in england one of our blind brothers had a seeing-eye dog that would.

faithfully guide and take him to the meetings each week.

dedalus

LOL @ Detective!!!

Dedalus

44

Do JW's Actually Believe This Stuff?!?

by Mister Biggs in

this was just forwarded to me.. (we need more comets to help take all of the stupid people away from among us!).

this comes from the branch in canada....... in england one of our blind brothers had a seeing-eye dog that would.

faithfully guide and take him to the meetings each week.

dedalus

f a dog knows where he should be on Tuesdays Thursdays and Sundays, is it not a good example for us and our meeting attendance?

So the point is, if you're a Witness, you should have the mentality of a canine?

Dedalus