Just in case anyone is interested, I thought I'd post an update on my progress here. I spoke to my parents, and gave them the reasons suggested here (Tell them I might want a family one day, and that I need to plan for the future in case there was a reason I couldn't pioneer. I also said that I'd go back to pioneering if I am in a position too once I am qualified, which was, of course, not true!) After much discussion they accepted my decision.
I then spoke to my uncle who is willing to take me on full time and train me, as he was short on staff anyway. So, starting the next service year (September) I will be working full time and going to night classes. :)
The next step is to find a company to work for that is not run by a Witness, and then to leave home, so I can begin the fade with a lot less trouble.
I still know it's going to be a difficult time, but I'm sure it's worth the effort.
Thanks for all your suggestions. :)
Zico
Posts by Zico
-
35Moving on...
by Zico ini've been reading this board regularly since it was introduced to me in march of this year.
at first, i was finding it pretty difficult coming to terms with the fact that my whole life had been a lie, but really, i suppose there's not much point in worrying about this now, what's done is done, and i'm still easily young enough to make a life in 'the world' despite a slow start.
the problem is that i have no idea how to go about.
-
-
Zico
-
30
What Good Are Watchtower Apologists To This Site?
by minimus inpersonally, i like them here.
they provide themselves a purpose to make lurkers question the "apostates".
that's fair, imho.
-
-
Zico
I think they are very important. When I first started doubting, I really wanted to believe the Organisation had the truth. I read anti-607 sites, but then I read pro-607 sites, and I was very confused, but leaned more to the side of the Pro ones, since they gave me what I wanted. However, when I actually saw 607 supporters debate their opinions with those who agreed with the 586/7 date, it became obvious that the JW apologists were wrong, as I saw them refuse to argue certain questions, and misrepresent facts, unlike the 'apostates' who took the time to go through each of their points and prove them wrong.
3rd Witness, Scholar and others will probably never accept what they are told, but I'm sure there are many Witnesses who read these debates and see that the JW apologists arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny. -
42
Problem with an elder
by Zico ini have a friend in my congregation.
he's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong.
as you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
-
-
Zico
Darkuncle – The tape recorder is a good idea! Though I’m not sure he’ll go for it. Are there any rules against this? His parents don’t go to meetings anymore, although they’re not disfellowshipped, the uncle won’t talk to them anymore. His uncle’s a postman, so not much of a businessman!
Littletoe – His uncle is the secretary. Before taking him off, he actually went round and asked people if he was lying about his hours, so he could have something against him! He failed though, which is why he was forced into using such a minor problem. I actually thought of this when I read Crisis of Conscience, where the elders tried to find something against Ray after his appeal against the disfellowshipping decision.
I used to think that the problems within our Congregation were just a local thing. How naïve! From reading that book, and reading this board, I can see that the lack of love really is an international problem.
-
42
Problem with an elder
by Zico ini have a friend in my congregation.
he's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong.
as you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
-
-
Zico
Hi all,
Thanks for your replies.
freetosee - Thankfully, his uncle is not the PO!
fullofdoubtnow - I do expect the elder to lie when he accuses him, because otherwise he clearly has no cause for complaint. This is why I want to act as a Witness.
Ann - Unfortunately our next CO visit is going to be with a new CO, so I am yet to meet him.
sspo - I think this is what I'm going to suggest for now. That we go to another elder together and explain the situation and ask him to speak to him. Though I expect the elder in question to defend himself by lying. If this doesn't work, then I think a letter to the Society will be the only solution. I'm not sure if it will do anything, even if the BOE is not impressed, he's not going to become an MS anytime soon anyway, so I don't think it makes much difference. This isn't the first problem there's been, and unless something is done, it won't be the last.
I reckon that if my friend moved to another Congregation he would be an MS in 6 months - a year. The problem is that he has many studies in the Congregation which he does not want to lose, so I guess he's stuck as he is for now.
Thanks again,
Zico -
42
Problem with an elder
by Zico ini have a friend in my congregation.
he's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong.
as you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
-
-
Zico
Thanks fullofdoubtnow,
Unfortunately there has been no other Witnesses to these Conversations, but I trust my friend and know that he is telling the Truth. It was other elders who have told him that he is not an MS because the elder in question has argued when he has been suggested as an appointment. I agree that I will need another Witness though.
At the very least, does anyone know if are we able to have the elder removed from the committee? I am sure that if he is not involved, the elders at the meeting will just laugh about it once they know the real story. -
42
Problem with an elder
by Zico ini have a friend in my congregation.
he's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong.
as you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
-
-
Zico
Thanks for your answer agapa! The reason I say 'We' is because I am still, technically, a Jehovah's Witness! I don't really believe it anymore, but I am still considered to be in 'Good standing' as I go to all the meetings, and on the service, I have not shared my doubts with anyone outside of this board, including this friend.
My friend has already spoken to the elder about his issues many times, with no success, so you think the next step would be too go to him with another person, and then to the elders if necessary? Do you think this will be successful though? -
42
Problem with an elder
by Zico ini have a friend in my congregation.
he's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong.
as you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
-
-
Zico
I have a friend in my Congregation. He's completely indoctrinated, and genuinely believes everything the Organisation teaches, but he's still a good person, and he stands up for things when he knows somethings wrong. As you can imagine, this often causes problems, and there is an arrogant elder who he has had many run ins with in the past.
My friend also has a lot of bible studies, and has helped many people become baptised, and he has a very good knowledge of the Society's teachings. The elder is his uncle, and he seems jealous because his children are not doing as much. Because of his jealousy and arrogance he's stopped him from progressing too far in the Organisation, forcing him to be removed as a pioneer because he didn't make his hours ONE month, and stopping him from becoming an MS. Some here might argue that this is a good thing, and I suppose it is, but this is what my friend really wants, and I don't think it's very fair considering everything he's done for the Organisation he serves.
The latest thing is that my friend is organising a party, for about 20 other Witnesses, some of whom are MS's. The elder found out about this, and asked around to find out if my friend was planning on serving alcohol. This was confirmed, and the Elder phoned him up and threatened to hold a judicial committee if he went ahead and served alcohol. This is completely out of line with the bible where Jesus turned water into wine, and even the Society who say it's ok to have alcohol at gatherings as long as you can control it and have some responsible people there.
Anyway, my friend used this argument, and also mentioned many other things, such as the fact that many young ones have organised gatherings where alcohol has been served, and he has never complained. Each time the elder responded by saying things like 'Don't answer back to me' or 'Don't argue with me.' He also said that because he was an elder he could not complain with what he was saying. Never ONCE did he use a scripture or even a Society quote to back up his stand, even though my friend asked for them, he just said his usual 'Don't argue with me!'
I'm sure this sounds quite unbelievable, but really, it is true! Basically, what I wanted to ask, is what my options are.
My friend plans on going ahead and serving alcohol to prove a point, and I've told him that he can call me up as a Witness to his committee. Is there anything we can do about the elder? We don't want him involved in the meeting, we don't think he's got a balanced opinion. My friend has been involved with meetings before with this elder, where he has not been able to express an opinion without the elder telling him not to argue with him.
Also, do you think this would be considered a genuine complaint? Can we take this man to the body of elders, saying that we have a problem with the way he is going about things? Do you think this would get anywhere? What would happen if we wrote a letter to the Society complaining about the elder?
Thanks,
Zico -
31
Got any quick 1914 / 607 points?
by drew sagan intomarrow i'm meeting with a jw friend who is connected to what's going on with these elders that came over our house and everything else.
i can't get into details as to how it works out, but this is the important part.
this guy (and elder) can be a quite reasonable person.
-
-
Zico
Hi Drew,
Just to add to The Listener's points, you can also use this scripture:
Jeremiah 52:28-30
28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·rez´zar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews.
29 In the eighteenth year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
30 In the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls.
All the souls were four thousand and six hundred.
Verse 30 shows that Jews were still being taken into exile in his 23rd year. Even if Society dates were correct, this would mean that Jews would still be being taken into exile in 602 BCE. According to Society teachings however, they reach the 70 years as they say that the land was completely desolate for 70 years, but clearly, it could not have been completely desolate in 602 BCE, as there were still hundreds of people living there! 5 years after the desolation was said to have happened. -
2
Armageddon to come soon?
by Zico ini've been doing some research about the 1935 date when jehovah supposedly stopped choosing anointed ones.
to me, there seems to be a major problem with this teaching, that the governing body or your general members don't seem to have picked up on.
w 02 2/1 pg 20 para 6 .
-
-
Zico
I've been doing some research about the 1935 date when Jehovah supposedly stopped choosing Anointed ones. To me, there seems to be a major problem with this teaching, that the Governing Body or your general members don't seem to have picked up on.
W 02 2/1 pg 20 para 6
"This “heavenly calling” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and, in the main, appears to have ended in the mid-1930’s. (Hebrews 3:1) The number of those sealed by the holy spirit to be part of spiritual Israel is 144,000, “bought from among mankind.” (Revelation 7:4; 14:1-4)"
W 96 Question from readers
"But it seems that in the mid-1930’s, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed"
After all, if Jehovah had selected all 144,000 of his members in the mid-1930s, this surely must mean Armageddon is coming soon? After all, the mid-30s were 70 years ago! Those who were anointed in the mid-30s must be near to death now, and the Society teach that some anointed will survive Armageddon. This is what it says in the Revelation book:
"Who are left to be judged after the old earth and the old heaven flee away? Not the anointed remnant of the 144,000, for these have already been judged and sealed. Those still alive on earth after Armageddon must shortly thereafter die and receive their heavenly reward by resurrection."
"No doubt, anointed ones who survive on earth will soon enter into their heavenly reward to join their fellow members of the bride class."
In order for anointed ones from the mid 1930s to survive Armageddon, then it surely has to come soon! The above Watchtower quotes indicate that the anointed were already selected in the mid 30s, not that they had to be born prior to the mid 30s, and since babies or even kids could not be anointed, the minimum age for these anointed ones would have to be about 20. Anyone who was 20 in 1935 would now be 91! They haven't got long to be a part of Armageddon have they?
But then, what about the replacements? Maybe Jehovah intended these ones to get through Armageddon?
The Reasoning book though, says that Jehovah does not foresee the future:
Does God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain events prove that he does this regarding all the actions of all his creatures?
Rev. 22:17: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (The choice is not foreordained; it is left to the individual.)
Illustration: The owner of a radio can listen to the world news. But the fact that he can listen to a certain station does not mean that he does. He must first turn on the radio and then select the station. Likewise, Jehovah has the ability to foreknow events, but the Bible shows that he makes selective and discretionary use of that ability, with due regard for the free will with which he has endowed his human creation."
If Jehovah chooses not to foresee the future in order to allow everyone the free will to choose whether or not they will serve him, surely Jehovah would not have known that he would have had to use some replacements for unfaithful ones? And if Jehovah had already selected the date prior to 1935, (Mark 13:32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father) he must have planned for some of those 1935 anointed to be part of Armageddon?
Even if he didn't want them to be part of Armageddon, how could he have expected a bunch of 90 year old + men to look after the 'worldwide organisation' in 2006? The fact that the majority of the Governing Body are 'replacements' surely proves this?
Even the 1935 anointed members of the Governing Body won't be able to last much longer. In about 10 more years, the whole Governing Body will be made up of replacements! Once again, if Jehovah planned this system to go to 2015, how could he have expected the anointed to look after the Great Crowd? They'd all be 100 by this time! He must be pretty glad that some of these were unfaithful!
As this System goes on and on, I guess this will be another teaching that is soon forced to become 'old light' with so many others.
Zico -
18
Wow. A really great insider story...
by DubBeachBabe inthis is one of the best-written and most insightful experiences i've read.
if you're interested in how bethel's writing department actually works, and recent scandals, this is a thought-provoking story.
i like this woman already.. it's very lengthy, so grab a cup of good coffee or a glass of wine, and settle in for a long read: .
-
-
Zico
I've not really looked into the Witness child molesting problem much since joining this site, preferring more to look at doctrinal issues in my search for the Truth about the Truth. Reading this story, which then made me visit the Silent Lambs site has absolutely stunned and disturbed me. I had absolutely no idea of the extent of this problem within the Organisation or the lengths that they go to in hiding the problem. It has made me feel really sick. This organisation has so much to answer for.