Posts by under

72

The "Seventy Years" explained

by Doug Mason in

here is a picture-based explanation of the "seventy years" prophesied by jeremiah.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/70_years_of_servitude.pdf.

please note that there are several pages and that you should set your pdf reader to full page.. as i said before, i have a red-green color vision deficiency, but this time i have taken the plunge and used color.

please tell me where i need to make corrections with the colors.. as always, i appreciate your suggestions for improvements, corrections and additions.. doug.

under_believer

drew, a simple

"LOL @ Bible Chronology"

would have been more succinct. And I couldn't agree more. :)

19

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 7-29-07 WT Study (Wonderfully Made)

by blondie in

comments you will not hear at the 7-29-07 wt study (june 15, 2007, pages 21-25)((wonderfully made).

review comments will be in red.

can one follow jesus without following the wts?

under_believer

You want to know what is weird about that article? They never mention the term "evolution" or even describe the concept once. My theory is that they learned their lesson with that joke of a "scientific" treatise, "Life--how did it get here? By evolution, or by creation?" They know they can't actually answer the scientific fact of evolution, so they don't even try.

On the other hand, you should have heard all the people in my wife's congregation talk about evolution, lack of mention in the article be damned. Not a single one of them understand even the most basic tenets of evolutionary biology--I heard the overused and highly inaccurate "life couldn't have possibly gotten here just by chance" more than once--but they sure do like to hold forth on how stupid people who believe in evolution are.

56

BirthdaysSimple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

by AuldSoul in

to deconstruct the jw rationale surrounding birthdays, a few simple guidelines should be followed.. (1): don't waste any energy trying to convince a jw that birthdays are not pagan, if they suggest that, readily agree.

whether or not the celebrations are pagan turns out to be a non-issue that distracts from the main point.. (2): stay focused on the fact that jws disfellowship people for celebrating birthdays.. (3): stress the point that there should always be clear scriptural reason for disfellowshipping someone.

ask them often throughout the discussion whether this is the case, get them to reinforce this need to themselves.. (4): remember, the first goal is deconstructing their rationale, not giving them a new rationale, not convincing them that celebrating birthdays is a good thing.. once you have these well in mind, the deconstruction can begin.. jw rationale, in brief:.

under_believer

Happy birthday, puck!

26

"Jehovah ALWAYS has worked through ONE organization!"

by Dagney in

jw
friends

how many times have we heard this?.

i would like to know if any of you have any good arguements refuting this.

my brain is fried from two weeks of "fencing" with jw's.

under_believer

Arthur, that was an excellent post, really sums everything up very tidily. Thanks. EDITED TO SAY: You too, jwfacts. Thanks. :)

46

You Need To Give Credit To The Society For Your Education

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

you need to give credit to the society for your education.the watchtower and awake magazines have been helping individuals receive a g.e.d .

or high school diploma.

where did you learn the art of public speaking?

under_believer

EDITED TO SAY:

I understand why you're doing these and they are probably helpful for many. I personally find them too distasteful to participate in, however.

70

We Are Dying!

by WeAreDying-Ophelia in

jw
friends

this is my first post and might be my only post, not sure.

i've chosen to "come out" for a moment just to talk about the 30 minute change in the public talk on sundays.

my father and brother are both elders, this change was a blow to them they enjoy giving encouraging public talks to the friends.

under_believer

Threads like this are the biggest reason I keep coming back to this forum.

Ophelia, you've touched my heart and caused me to pour out some stuff I've never really articulated before. I know how you feel. We're all in this same boat together--you, me, people who have already left, people who are still in. Many people at Bethel, many, many elders and ministerial servants, many pioneers, many circuit overseers, many missionaries are all feeling the same way you and I are right now.

I think, for all the stupid mistakes the elders make (how could they not? They are utterly untrained for the position they're being asked to fill free of charge) and all the flak they catch from people on this board, much of it deserved, I think that those elders might have it harder than anybody else. At least, those elders who are thinking, feeling, caring people, and there are many of them. Quite a few current and very recently former elders post here.

They have it harder because they know more than the rest of us about the many crazy things the Society is asking of them today--they are literally being turned into mindless automatons, loudspeakers, organ grinders (that might be the best description I've ever heard.) All of the individuality and talent and spark has been removed from their jobs. They literally are supposed to be Society mouthpieces that parrot back the exact message the Society wants them to. It must be agonizing to have the skills, ability, and desire to help and inspire and encourage people and yet be prevented from doing so, by letters from the Society (Dear brothers:) and by haranguing, pushy Circuit Overseers. Remember when they used to be Circuit Servants? Well they're Overseers now. Kind of a different tone, isn't it?

47

Former Jehovahs WitnessAre Hypocrites

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

former jehovahs witnessare hypocritesit amazes me how these people who once donned three-piece suits .

with book, bag and bible in hand are now singing the blues.

these former jehovahs witnesses, who would annoy a man and his.

under_believer

I'd say: "My parents made my bed, asshole. Now I have to lie in it."

70

We Are Dying!

by WeAreDying-Ophelia in

jw
friends

this is my first post and might be my only post, not sure.

i've chosen to "come out" for a moment just to talk about the 30 minute change in the public talk on sundays.

my father and brother are both elders, this change was a blow to them they enjoy giving encouraging public talks to the friends.

under_believer

Ophelia,

I'm still nominally "in," going to most of the meetings for my wife's sake, though I've stopped commenting, going out in service, and giving parts on the TMS. I was raised as a Witness and was a pioneer and a ministerial servant before the changes you refer to disillusioned me and got me thinking about my beliefs and concerns.

What changes?

The 1995 change in what "Generation" meant, effectively removing any kind of definitive timetable for the "end." It just seemed a little too convenient--they held onto the teaching of "the generation that would by no means pass away" and pushed it and pushed it in the ministry, in the books, in the Watchtower, right up until the last possible moment they could, and then changed it because it obviously wasn't going to come true. I personally went door-to-door and did street witnessing, loudly and enthusiastically advertise, advertise, advertising that message to anyone who would listen, only to have them suddenly change it. And hardly anyone seemed to notice! They just nodded their heads at that Watchtower study, and I stared around in amazement.

The massive "simplification" effort, basically downsizing. When I was a kid in the 80's, we had food service at conventions, something I was always happy to take part in. We had hour-long public talks (shortly thereafter changed to 45 minutes and now 30 minutes.) We had a wonderful vision for the future. The Awake was published twice a month, the conventions were four days long with two dramas, the books were hardbound with faux gold-leaf lettering, the paper was high-quality. They would have photo-dramas in place of the public talk sometimes, you remember that?

And with all these simplifications, what happened back at headquarters? Growth. They bought more and more Brooklyn property and poured millions of dollars of contributions from poor Witness families all over the US into renovating opulent hotels and theaters. They made a massive upstate compound (the Educational Center). They laid off many lifetime Bethel servants and their wives just as they were moving into their middle years, people who had no skills and no retirement plan other than living at Bethel, and cast those folks out into the night. Something just didn't seem right to me about all of this. Why were we downsizing?

And then there was the lack of growth in the US, when I KNEW the Spanish-language halls were exploding. This could only mean that the older English-speaking halls were declining rapidly.

And the whole tone from Brooklyn took on a decidedly different tone--the focus now is on loyalty and obedience to the Society, not questioning what they say, not thinking for oneself (they actually SAY that now.) All the time while they were making decisions that seemed so questionable...

So you ask whether I've been wondering? I did, yes, for a long time. You ask whether any elders in my hall have said anything? They are asleep at the wheel, trudging on like they always have. You say your congregation is dying? Mine is a dead husk with the same several families, the mostly 50+ aged elders, the same row of white-haired ladies, and wave after wave of young people come up, look around, and leave the religion. There is no life, no spark, no social possibility, no friendliness. People go through the motions, clap when they're supposed to, sing unenthusiastically when they're asked to, chuckle quietly under their breath when a speaker makes a joke. The talks are the same old talks--look, the world is so bad, look, here is what to do to fix it. I can't remember the last time we had a congregation get-together. My family never gets invited to anyone's house for dinner--we are, as far as we know, the only ones who ever invite anyone over, and it's been a while for us now, too.

Gone are the guitar-strumming Kingdom Song sing-alongs of my youth. Gone are the Christian question-and-answer games we used to play at get-togethers. Gone are the potshares. Gone is the feeling that we were part of something dynamic and important. Gone is the enthusiasm for the ministry. Gone is the anticipation for each convention about what the new release would be.

You say you're dying? You say all you have is each other? You say you're not the only one? I would say that you're a perceptive lady, Ophelia. I wish you good fortune on your journey and hope that you find eventual happiness with your family and your friends intact.

19

USA is Addicted to War

by frankiespeakin in

jw
friends

the us government has hundreds of miltary bases in other countries, military spending is where 50% of your tax dollars go, there are huge profits to be made by big business in this.

one thing that is needed is that human consciousness of the problem, (minus the propaganda indoctrination) needs to be raised to a higher level, i see signs of this happening, but as yet it is not enough yet to make the sweeping changes that are needed so that we don't wind up inihilating the whole human race, our consciousness has not keep up with our technology of weapon making, profits and self interest put us in the dangerous path leading to nonexistance:.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2766280303360219617&q=addicted+to+war&total=113&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0.

under_believer

This Fry and Laurie bit seems germane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6riY-103vbc

20

Someone doesn't like Alan F. & Carl O.

by whereami in

check out these two post that were made:.

jw1983 - rolf furuli .

a slightly revised edition of "assyrian, babylonian, egyptian, and persian .

under_believer

Here is a fact for all these people who like to use Bible Chronology for predictive purposes: the number of times Bible Chronology has yielded an accurate prediction is exactly zero.

Common sense kind of argues against it, too... does anyone really think that God would leave these completely ambiguous, totally debatable hints in ancient texts for people to argue about and puzzle over millenia later? Doesn't it seem pretty unbelievable? And inefficient? And maybe, oh, I don't know, COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE?

When you put the highly unlikely nature of Bible Chronology together with the results it's proven to have so far, the decision to reject it seems pretty easy to make.

PS: What does this "scholarly" search for exact dates and times say for someone's faith? For their belief in the Sermon on the Mount? If you need a specific date to hang your faith from, is it really faith at all?

PPS: Just read some of Furuli's text. The example above will do. Or Jonsson's for that matter, or (please forgive me) JCanon's (who does an excellent job of analysis and debunking.) Read it all the way through. Now take a deep breath. Now read a few pages of any Gospel, doesn't matter which, just pick some at random. Can you honestly read the simple, direct, free, liberating account of Jesus and his ways and teachings, and then look at these almost neutronically dense monoliths of prose about eclipses, lunar calendars, regnal successions, cuneiform tablets, biblical typology, and god help us mathematics, and think that this is really what Jesus had in mind for his followers to be thinking about or teaching or depending on for faith and belief?

under_believer

Posts by under_believer