I'm technically agnostic, with a very very slight tilt towards deism, but most worshipers in the Abrahamic tradition would consider me an atheist because I don't believe in Abraham's god (or at least I don't believe in its divinity.)
Nevertheless my wife and kids believe in Jehovah. They expect prayers and meals and before bedtime, and while I am pretty lousy at it I still do it because it is expected of me. I rationalize it this way: it would be very disturbing to them if I stopped, and that kind of shock makes my wife LESS likely to eventually leave the Society, not more.
And also, prayer does "work" in a way, even if no one is listening. Let me explain. Prayer essentially boils down to two basic forms: praise/thanks (god you're really great, thanks for the wombats) and supplication (god please give me a new robot wife).
When one gives thanks, one is taking a moment to appreciate their blessings. Appreciating and enumerating one's blessings is a healthy activity that combats depression and prevents people from taking the good things in their lives for granted. It results in better mental health and a better outlook on life. If prayer is a vehicle for my family to accomplish these goals (and even for me, whether I believe someone's listening or notm) then fine.
When one supplicates, one asks for things to happen. This is a harder sell for me as being in any way useful. Usually Witnesses ask for things like "please help us to not be persecuted, please help brother so and so get better, please make paradise come faster". These topics aren't worth a hill of beans to me. But perhaps praying for better personal behavior, for better mental health, for better relationships--in other words, personal topics--does some good. Perhaps this helps the person praying to self-actualize these topics, to keep them on their mind and in the forefront of their personal development.
I don't know. I don't pray for myself, ever. But it seems to do my family some good.
under_believer
JoinedPosts by under_believer
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Atheists, Agnostics: Do you still pray?
by Eh infor people who left, not only the organization, but also the canaanite/judaic/christian/islamic/bahai god, do you still pray?
before we left the group we (my wife and i) were questioning the bible and the existence of god.
being witnesses, we were uneducated and never heard of things like pascal's wager, but we (my wife especially) had come to a similar idea - even if the whole thing were ballocks, there was little harm in continuing.
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under_believer
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Do they mean WTS or Dubs?
by TopHat inon tuesday, july 31, 2007, jehovah's witnesses in turkey received a. letter of certification confirming that the "association for the support.
of jehovah's witnesses" has been officially registered.
the witnesses.
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under_believer
You know, try as I might I can't bring myself to see this as bad news.
Any opening up of public discourse and freedom of speech in a Muslim country is good. -
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WHO WAS THIS POSTER? Help please!
by Open mind inwhen i stumble across someone's long life story or a really good sounding long thread, i often cut and paste it into my nerdy little pda for later reading at the kingdom hell.. well, i did that for a life story from a poster who signed off as "dave" but i blew it and didn't get his username or the url for the thread.
his life story in a nutshell centered around a 2 week trip he made to bethell to work as a consultant for the art/graphics department back in the 80's.
it really woke him up and he subsequently left the dubs.
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under_believer
Para, which urban legends, out of curiosity? I am a pretty good urban legend spotter and also a skeptical reader and I don't remember seeing any in there. You can PM me if you'd rather not be the contrary voice in this Dave appreciation thread.
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WHO WAS THIS POSTER? Help please!
by Open mind inwhen i stumble across someone's long life story or a really good sounding long thread, i often cut and paste it into my nerdy little pda for later reading at the kingdom hell.. well, i did that for a life story from a poster who signed off as "dave" but i blew it and didn't get his username or the url for the thread.
his life story in a nutshell centered around a 2 week trip he made to bethell to work as a consultant for the art/graphics department back in the 80's.
it really woke him up and he subsequently left the dubs.
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under_believer
That was Dave. The whole thing is at freeminds: http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/dave.htm. A great read, I totally agree. Dave posted the whole thing here serially under the username seven006: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/member/5756.ashx.
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Are Your Morals The Same As When You Were A Witness?
by minimus ini guess that i can say, from a biblical viewpoint, anyone that practices "fornication", having sex without being married, would be "immoral".
other than, i don't lie or cheat or steal or even kill anyone else!
do you view yourself a "moral" or "immoral" person and why?
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under_believer
Cog, you are apparently aware of exactly one form of prostitution. You are mentally extending this one set of practices out to cover every form of offering sexual gratification for monetary gain.
The form of prostitution you are talking about is a very, very bad scene. I can't speak for anyone else but I am not promoting sexual slavery, drug addiction, or the kind of abuse pimps dish out to underage girls and women every day.
But what about the 32 year old freelancer that works out of craigslist? What about the massage therapist that offers "happy endings?" What about the women working with some of Vancouver, BC's high-end escort agencies? There are forms of prostitution that are fully consensual, do not involve slavery or drug abuse, and are practiced by mature humans who know exactly what they are doing and why. I propose that when the prostitute obviously demonstrates soundness of mind, is drug- and disease-free, and is in full control of her own destiny as to whether she continues that form of employment or not, there is absolutely no abuse or immorality taking place. -
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Are Your Morals The Same As When You Were A Witness?
by minimus ini guess that i can say, from a biblical viewpoint, anyone that practices "fornication", having sex without being married, would be "immoral".
other than, i don't lie or cheat or steal or even kill anyone else!
do you view yourself a "moral" or "immoral" person and why?
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under_believer
cog, you should do some research into legalized prostitution. In places where it is legal, the prostitutes fare far better than they do where it is outlawed. There are also many, many prostitutes in the US who work purely by word-of-mouth and networking and do not have anyone "representing" them to customers. Freelancers, if you will. And these folks do very well also.
The brand of prostitution you're talking about, where streetwalkers are essentially drug-addicted sex slaves to evil pimps, is hardly the only way to go about it.
Absent the criminal element, and given safe sex practices, prostitution becomes hardly any bigger a deal than getting a massage. -
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Of all the billions of planets - why did the demons get sent to Earth?
by truthseeker insome say it is fitting that the demons were hurled down to earth because the original serpent began his rebellion against god in the garden of eden.
yet, what happened is tantamount to unlocking every prison on earth and letting murderers, rapists and evildoers go free to terrorize humanity.
the angels were aware of the effects of the expulsion of the demons and their leader - "be glad you heavens and you who reside in them.
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under_believer
Mum got the right answer. This stuff was started as oral tradition by people barely out of the hunter-gatherer stage of civilization, they had no idea there were other planets. Their picture of the universe was like this:
HEAVEN-->EARTH-->HELL
it was two-dimensional column. They didn't even know the earth was round. -
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Are Your Morals The Same As When You Were A Witness?
by minimus ini guess that i can say, from a biblical viewpoint, anyone that practices "fornication", having sex without being married, would be "immoral".
other than, i don't lie or cheat or steal or even kill anyone else!
do you view yourself a "moral" or "immoral" person and why?
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under_believer
Did you feel this way when a German man, a couple of years ago agreed to literally eat another man thru cannibalism? Both men agreed that one would be eaten and no coercion or force was involved.It was a decision by 2 consenting adults. The public uproar that resulted was phenomonal! People were greatly disturbed because what occured to THEM was immoral.
Umm.... minimus, I don't think the uproar was because they thought the act was immoral. I think the uproar was because of IT'S DISGUSTING TO EAT A DUDE.
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are witnesses dumb?
by under_believer inthey're merely ignorant.
and why, you ask, are they ignorant?
in august, 2007 a professor at quaid-i-azam university in islamabad, pakistan named pervez hoodbhoy wrote an essay titled science and the islamic worldthe quest for rapprochement.
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under_believer
No, they're not. They're merely ignorant. And WHY, you ask, are they ignorant? Because they are kept that way.
In August, 2007 a professor at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, Pakistan named Pervez Hoodbhoy wrote an essay titled Science and the Islamic world—The quest for rapprochement. It is a very recommendable essay about why the Islamic world is so backwards, scientifically, when it was responsible for a scientific Golden Age between the 9th and the 13th century and basically carried the torch of intellectualism through Europe's Dark Ages.You should read that essay if you have time, it's great. But a couple of the things he said hit me right in the gut when applied to my experience as a Witness:
The scientific method is alien to traditional, unreformed religious thought. Only the exceptional individual is able to exercise such a mindset in a society in which absolute authority comes from above, questions are asked only with difficulty, the penalties for disbelief are severe, the intellect is denigrated, and a certainty exists that all answers are already known and must only be discovered.
Sent shivers down my spine. And:
If Muslim societies are to develop technology instead of just using it, the ruthlessly competitive global marketplace will insist on not only high skill levels but also intense social work habits. The latter are not easily reconcilable with religious demands made on a fully observant Muslim's time, energy, and mental concentration: The faithful must participate in five daily congregational prayers, endure a month of fasting that taxes the body, recite daily from the Qur'an, and more. Although such duties orient believers admirably well toward success in the life hereafter, they make worldly success less likely.
It's the same complaint many have about Witnesses: when one is ridiculously busy with religious pursuits, one has no time for anything else, including rational thought.
People of every religious stripe but especially those entrapped in fundamentalist systems are all dealing with the same problems.
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JWs... That's not "MEAT JUICE" that you're eating !
by AlphaOmega ina while ago i had a discussion with a jw who swung the conversation around to "the blood issue"... .
i asked him that as he "abstained from blood", does he therefore only eat "kosher meat".. his response was "what's does kosher mean" !.
i explained, and he then told me that all meat nowadays was "kosher", and that the red juice that runs from a steak is infact "meat juice" and not blood, so it was okay to eat.. hmmmmmn.... .
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under_believer
OK let's break down that QFR you posted. The fallacies in the blood ban are present RIGHT IN THAT ARTICLE.
A Christian may eat meat only from animals that were drained of their blood at the time they were slaughtered. The Bible commands: "Keep abstaining . . . from blood and from things strangled."—Acts 15:29.
Nice how they cut out the rest of the scripture, which might shed a little light on the proscription. Later Paul told Christians that food sacrificed to idols was okay, that it was only to avoid stumbling people that we might want to avoid that stuff, that what defiles a man comes from within, not from what he consumes.Of course, even the meat from properly bled animals may appear to be very red or may have red fluid on the surface. This is because bleeding does not remove every trace of blood from the animal. But God’s law does not require that every single drop of blood be removed. It simply states that the animal should be bled.
They just said that eating blood was okay. Right there. See that? They're making our point for us. The Israelites were required to bleed the animal for symbolic reasons, not because they weren't supposed to eat blood. If you eat meat, you eat blood.
As an aside, since when did the Mosaic Law convenant, from which they obtained those "requirements," still pertain to Christians? How do they get off calling the Law "God's Law?"
As long as an animal has been properly bled, its meat may Scripturally be used for food.
Even though that meat still contains lots of blood. Eating blood is okay with Jehovah's Witnesses, everyone! Shout it from the rooftops!!!!!!
There may be times, however, when a Christian has reason to believe that an animal may not have been bled properly.
Let me rephrase that for accuracy: "There may be times, however, when a Christian has reason to believe that an animal has not been ritualistically prepared in a way satisfactory to primitive tribal peoples 3000 years gone."
So let's sum up.
* Bleeding an animal does not remove all (or even most) of the blood.
* Witnesses eat meat that is bled
* Therefore, by the Society's admission, eating blood is okay for Witnesses.
* The reasons Witnesses avoid blood are symbolic and the proscription can be fulfilled, not by avoiding eating blood, but by following ritualistic procedures that demonstrate respect for blood.
* Therefore: Blood transfusions cannot consistently be forbidden. They are okay as long as proper respect for blood is demonstrated.Question: What is a more respectful use for something than using it to save someone's life?