under_believer

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Posts by under_believer

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  4

  DC quote: "most people in Christendom"

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "most people in christendom know that jesus died, but they don't connect the dots... that if we die, the resurrection hope is based on the ransom.".

  well done, captain strawman.

  anyone who accepts that has never had a conversation with even a moderately informed mainstream christian.

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  under_believer

  Yep, absolutely was said from the platform in the closing talk by the Bethelite.
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  4

  DC quote: "most people in Christendom"

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "most people in christendom know that jesus died, but they don't connect the dots... that if we die, the resurrection hope is based on the ransom.".

  well done, captain strawman.

  anyone who accepts that has never had a conversation with even a moderately informed mainstream christian.

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  under_believer

  Yep, absolutely was said from the platform in the closing talk by the Bethelite.
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  4

  DC quote: "most people in Christendom"

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "most people in christendom know that jesus died, but they don't connect the dots... that if we die, the resurrection hope is based on the ransom.".

  well done, captain strawman.

  anyone who accepts that has never had a conversation with even a moderately informed mainstream christian.

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  under_believer

  "Most people in Christendom know that Jesus died, but they don't connect the dots... That if we die, the resurrection hope is based on the Ransom."

  Well done, Captain Strawman. Anyone who accepts that has never had a conversation with even a moderately informed mainstream Christian.
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  13

  DC: apostates are the Anti-Christ

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the more you know, i guess.. also, they used a metaphor likening them to known sex offenders.

  .

  good times over here in day 2. .

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  under_believer

  They did indeed mention that. The whole talk was rife with straw man arguments just like that, easy for them to tidily dispose of.

  Also the apostate's main goal is to achieve prominence and attention.

  Good times.
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  13

  DC: apostates are the Anti-Christ

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the more you know, i guess.. also, they used a metaphor likening them to known sex offenders.

  .

  good times over here in day 2. .

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  under_believer

  The more you know, I guess.

  Also, they used a metaphor likening them to known sex offenders.

  Good times over here in Day 2.
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  10

  Emotionally manipulative claptrap

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just watched the first drama of the convention.

  man what a load of simplistic, lurid, manipulative garbage.

  off to barf now.

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  under_believer

  Thanks for the replies, I needed them.

  Let's see:

  I successfully faded lo these many years ago, but I still go to DC and Memorial to support my wife who is still in. The compromises we make!

  I am in Portland, OR. Otherwise I would love to meet up. Nice to know that others are suffering too. ;)

  No, nobody was naked. They were wearing 21st century street clothes. Oddly they all spoke English, some with Middle Eastern accents.

  And no, nobody cheered when that girl who sounded like a mentally retarded version of Violet from The Incredibles died. My wife actually cried. We have a daughter about that age so maybe she identified.

  I still don't get the point of that drama. I have a lot of criticism for the dramas in general but this one set a new low point for bad writing. It was just all over the place; no plot, weak theming, confusing flashbacks and flash forwards. Was the message "life sucks and it's not God's fault?" In the end that was all I could come up with.
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  10

  Emotionally manipulative claptrap

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just watched the first drama of the convention.

  man what a load of simplistic, lurid, manipulative garbage.

  off to barf now.

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  under_believer

  Just watched the first drama of the convention. Man what a load of simplistic, lurid, manipulative garbage.

  If you have seen it you know what I mean.

  Off to barf now.
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  141

  "Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

  by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

  beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

  but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

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  under_believer

  As a pioneer, I was always 100% honest on my numbers. But I was counting time for stuff that, while it could technically be counted, had almost zero chance of bringing anyone into the "truth." Driving around to every convenience store in the county for hours starting at 4AM and dropping off tracts and back issues is pretty much a lost cause.

  I made my time the first year, went to Pioneer school, and then was removed a couple months later when I messed around with a "sister." I can't remember ever being more relieved than when I realized I wouldn't have to make 1000 hours that year. Yep, that dates me a bit. :)
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  9

  Upset my mom. :(

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  last weekend, my parents had the kids and my wife and i had a whole weekend just to ourselves.

  it was great; we did nothing the entire time except relax and enjoy the silence.. last night we went to pick up the kids.

  my mom made dinner, and we ate and visited, and i sadly got into it with my mom and ended up really upsetting her.

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  under_believer

  Last weekend, my parents had the kids and my wife and I had a whole weekend just to ourselves. It was great; we did NOTHING the entire time except relax and enjoy the silence.

  Last night we went to pick up the kids. My mom made dinner, and we ate and visited, and I sadly got into it with my mom and ended up really upsetting her. I love my mom and this was far from my intention, but I just couldn't let a couple of things go that I suppose I just should have.

  My wife was talking about how our neighborhood is lousy. Background: we still live in the first home we ever bought, in a relatively low-income neighborhood. Our house backs up to a trailer court and there is government housing at the end of our street. My wife's story was about some poorly behaved teenagers she saw when she took the kids to the neighborhood park. My mom chose to make a comment about how my wife's story showed just how bad things are these days and how much worse they are than even a few years ago.

  My mom has been saying this exact same thing every single year that I remember for my entire life. She has been saying this because the Watchtower Society has been saying it for every single year of my life.

  I tried, I really did, to keep my mouth shut. But I ended up blurting out "No, things aren't any worse than when we moved there. It has nothing to do with the world being so bad, and getting worse and worse; it's because it's a low-income neighborhood."

  Mom said, "So if you went back ten years, you are telling me things were just as bad then?"

  Me: "Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It has been exactly this bad since we moved there."

  My Wife: "Actually that's true. That neighborhood has always had a poor reputation and worse crime the entire time it's existed." My wife was born and raised in this town, so she would know. Keep in mind that my wife is also an active JW.

  Me: "And we often go to the school park at <<redacted for anonymity>>, which backs up to a solidly middle-class neighborhood. Every kid there is closely attended by a parent or guardian, no unattended children like at our park. There's no crowds of teens hanging out and making out or having sex in the bathrooms or smoking pot. It's a totally different experience, and it's completely due to income level. The world isn't getting any worse."

  At this point the conversation broke up and my mom and my wife talked a bit in the kitchen, and my dad and I talked on the couch. I could still hear them talking, though, and I hear my mom grousing to my wife about how I was deluding myself and how we really are in very last gasps of the Time Of The End.

  Again, I couldn't let it go. I hollered out (not angrily but just to be overheard) "Mom, honestly, things aren't worse now. For example, did you know that the crime rate across the entire US is at a 30 year low? The lowest it's been in almost my entire life."

  Dad: "That's actually true, dear." My dad is also an active JW.

  So my mom trots out to the living room and says, "That may be true, but if you honestly look at the big picture, are you really telling me you think things aren't the worst they've ever been in the history of mankind? That you think the world isn't about to destroy itself?"

  Me: "I really, honestly don't." And I went on to relate infant mortality improvements, about how many cancers are survivable compared to years ago, about average life spans and literacy rates, about childhood cancer being amazingly treatable now. I talked about how, while there still many violent deaths worldwide right now, there are no countries at war with each other. I talked about how while AIDS isn't cured, it is definitely controllable and practically at the level of a chronic condition rather than a life threatening illness like it was just a few years ago, and about how while we are in a recession right now, these things are cyclical and have always occurred--that they aren't new phenomena at all.

  She just looked at me, knowing she was unable to compete with me in the realm of facts, but also knowing to the core of her being that I was wrong, dead wrong, and that we really are in the worst times in human history, so bad that Jehovah will have to intervene to save humans from themselves--and that this is going to happen soon, very soon, possibly next week, possibly tomorrow.

  And her face got red. And she walked out of the room.
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  6

  Is higher education about worldly riches?

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  haven't posted on here in years, but this topic really gets my goat and i just had the "priviledge" of going to a special assembly day where the bethel speaker, john williams, strongly held forth against higher education.

  in particular, he stressed how higher education is all about greed and getting rich, and how knowledge puffs up, and that people who go to college are arrogant and selfish.. this is kind of a bad thing because this guy is a really strong, accomplished speaker.

  several times i found myself captivated by his delivery in spite of myself.. in response to the idea that somehow education is about getting rich, i would like everyone to take a look at these numbers from the us department of labor: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm.

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  under_believer

  Just to make sure the implications of the linked chart are clear here:

  In 2010 in the US, on average, you had to have a bachelor's degree (a four-year degree) to make over the median wage, which is $782/week. Try raising a family on $782/week. People with only a high school diploma made $626/week--people with a bachelor's degree made $1038/week.

  In 2010 in the US, people with a only high-school diploma had, on average, an unemployment rate of 10.3%. People with a bachelor's degree had almost half that rate at 5.4%.

  In short, "higher" education is a misnomer--it's really just education. It shouldn't be condemned, it's not about "making yourself feel smart" or "getting rich." It's more about "being employable" and "making a living wage."

  How many Witnesses are unemployed? How many are on the public dole?