Propolog2,
Leaving well enough alone is sometimes far more tempting than trying to encourage a good open communication with someone. In fact, it can be alot easier! As we know witnesses go door to door with their news. Now, I suppose we could argue whether or not they should do this a thousand times over but in the end,they go out because they feel justified in doing so. Whether it be because they care about those outside their faith or because they feel it is scripturally mandated or just to save their own skin- they feel justified in doing so. Similiarly, those that care about witnesses may feel justified in approaching them with their concerns.
What can we say? We're interconnected. Hands off is one approach to the subject or you can try to open up the communication (yes, even with a "taboo" goal at the end- like getting someone to convert or de-convert). To each his own, I guess, but I'm glad someone brought the topic up.
detective
JoinedPosts by detective
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24
How Do You Get Someone Out? (Part 1)
by Mindchild inpart 1. i thought it might be advantageous to discuss effective ways of getting someone out of the borg and to dispel some myths we might be entertaining about beliefs and changing them.
in this thread i was hoping to start a discussion about the sociology of the witness belief system and how this can be used to help people escape from the mental trap they have found themselves in.
the first outside book i ever read about jws was in the late 1970s by james beckford.
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detective
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24
How Do You Get Someone Out? (Part 1)
by Mindchild inpart 1. i thought it might be advantageous to discuss effective ways of getting someone out of the borg and to dispel some myths we might be entertaining about beliefs and changing them.
in this thread i was hoping to start a discussion about the sociology of the witness belief system and how this can be used to help people escape from the mental trap they have found themselves in.
the first outside book i ever read about jws was in the late 1970s by james beckford.
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detective
These steps are interesting. For me, the steps were reversed (probably due to my worldliness). It was rule 2,3,1 then 4. Of course, rule number four kinda killed rules two, three and one in the end.
Actually, I had done much prep work getting myself informed and then planting seeds here and there but was forced into a "confrontation" before I was comfortably ready. My ultimate goal was to get my friend out but my more realistic goal was just to get the rusted wheels in my friend's head turning.
I found books by Steven Hassan helpful. Additionally, some basic knowledge of psychology and/or sociology can be beneficial. I think one of the key concepts touched upon in Hassan's books was the issue of trust. Especially if you are a known dissenter. Connecting with someone and gaining there trust is, in my opinion, an essential part of getting them to open themselves up to conversation. Of course, as I unfortunately found out, any mention of rule #4 (tidbits about the group) can send someone into a frenzy of distrust.Asking people to open up and consider another viewpoint is difficult. There is no exact science to it but having a few basic suggestions to work with is helpful. I'd recommend reading Hassan's books even if you don't believe the group is a "destructive cult" simply because offers reminders and insights into communication that can prove valuable.
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Avoiding arguments/hurt feelings on JW.com
by teejay infor exjws (and jws, too), simon's forum is one of the most interesting and potentially beneficial sites on the entire internet since it's a small-scale version of life as it really is.
people from a variety of social, racial and national groups who make up an extended familytied together by a common history of life in the borgcome to share their day to day experiences and openly debate issues old and new.. as different as we are, breakdowns in communication happen and instead of learning something or getting a fresh way of looking at an issue, what should be a reasonable debate turns into an insult-fest.
people, some still hurting from bad experiences as a dub, get hurt even more and bitter feuds result that are felt for a long time.
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detective
Nice post, Teejay. Very well thought out and written.
Now about that pesky kitty who's been loitering around it...
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45
Do you think JWS are a cult?
by Trixie indo you think that the jw religion is a cult?
i believe that it is, but i wanted to get other people's opinion.
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detective
Sexyteen, your question ...
"One question, what rules does the Governing Body impose that are not in the Bible?"The ol' no birthday rule, for one.
Yes, we know what they "reason" from the bible. Unfortunately, the bible doesn't speak on the matter. If you weigh the fact that God had over 600 opportunities to mention this birthday ban as Moses trudged up and down the mountain but neglected to do so- well, I figure God just didn't think the birthday thing was that big a deal. But a bunch of crusty old men seem to disagree- go figure.
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45
Do you think JWS are a cult?
by Trixie indo you think that the jw religion is a cult?
i believe that it is, but i wanted to get other people's opinion.
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detective
I do believe they fit the social/behavioral criteria of a cult. I also refer to them as a "high control group" so as not to induce visions of shaven heads and tambourines in people I am talking with. Occasionally I'll even call them a "closed society" if I think my listener is especially skittish. Sexyteen gave the exact same description as my JW friend did when I casually mentioned cults in a conversation. And I mean, almost exactly the same description. Coincidence?
Sexyteen, it's good that you honor your parents. Just don't do it on Mother's day or Father's day because on those days the scriptural basis goes out the window. On the up side, you can show your love and respect for your mother on any day of the year but one!
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74
I'm another Newbie
by MyMy inhey peeps, how are you?.
the name is mark, i've been hanging around here from time to time.
i read about the elders meeting with officer danni.s.
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detective
Joel,
There must be two Parkfoot Hills congregations. Danni has said she works in Florida. -
221
The meeting did not go well.
by Danni init would have taken more much more time to tell it all.
he told us the meeting would began as soon as the other brothers arrived.
danni: i will give you two.
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detective
Here we go again with the blanket statements...
From Danni: "Detctive you are just a lot of talk. You want to put me down for what I did but, that's all you will do. You won't go anywhere to make a difference. you will come here everyday and complain about those who don't follow your instructions on how things should be handled. I am still waiting for you march your ass over there and do something."Uh, how the hell would you know what efforts I have or have not put in on this or any other issue? Let's be honest, here. You have no idea what contributions I have or haven't made. You know little to nothing about me. Regardless, this is not about me. This is about the situation you described. But unless I agree with how things went off in your situation, then according to you I'm supporting the society or never doing anything to help or just otherwise useless and evil. You'll notice that I've criticized your ACTIONS relating to this incident. I have not implied anything beyond it pertaining to your character. At least, I haven't intentionally done so, correct me if I'm wrong. And yet, you have offered a variety of comments intended to belittle me, despite the fact that, with one exception, I've hardly demonstrated even mild annoyance towards you. It would be helpful if you would stop trying to paint everyone who doesn't immediately agree with your methods with such broad, and more than a little bit insulting brush strokes.
At this point I should probably give up speaking with you as it's not simply that you don't agree with me that's the problem, it's that you don't want to hear what I'm saying. And when you speak to me, all I'm hearing is condemnation and contempt towards me, mixed with the very emotion that, while I admire it, I feel it contributed to your misdirected actions. I've tried to praise your intentions while not really appreciating your methods but all I get is silly little insults back from you. I tend to wonder if this is how you conduct your police business? Broad generalizations, condemning though uninformed insults? Is this the person that walked into that meeting? Or did you add a badge and an attitude to the mix? No offense, but that doesn't strike me as a good combination and I'm not entirely sure I support that approach. Look, I really hope that's not the case. I could go on about this and a few other concerns but I think it's pretty pointless at the moment.
I see alot of victims related to the organization. And I see victims who are likely to turn around into victimizers. Not just on the sexual abuse issue either, but in a variety of areas. That's what I see. I don't know how to fix it. I just know it's damn complex. I hope you understand that much.
Good luck with whatever you do.
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221
The meeting did not go well.
by Danni init would have taken more much more time to tell it all.
he told us the meeting would began as soon as the other brothers arrived.
danni: i will give you two.
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detective
Wow! Talk about taking a beating for daring to hold a dissenting view. Let's see, it's been insinuated that people who haven't fully agreed with Danni's approach are supporting elders, child molesters, the society and have little or no regard for victims. Well, if you don't like how she went about things there must be something wrong with YOU. You must be deficient, ruthless, evil or uncaring because you didn't step up with support for Danni's methods! Uh, sorry, but those types of responses are only intended to insult and belittle opposing opinions and those holding them. They are completely unfounded generalizations that do nothing but act as hurtful allegations in an attempt to quell dissent.
I am not, nor have I ever supported the watchtower policies on pedophilia. I am not, nor will I ever support the blatant abuse of power that the society engages in. It outrages and saddens me in ways that I cannot even begin to convey.
What I have taken issue with, as you will see if you read my responses to Danni in an earlier thread, is that an abuse of power is an abuse of power. I certainly despise it as the Watchtower does it, and I don't think it should be answered with additional abuses of power even if they are well meaning. Should I applaud Danni's throwing around of her police weight when on unofficial business that will only make a minute handful of people squirmand not even get close to touching the broader concern? Honestly, it doesn't seem to have accomplished much. I asked Danni what her goals were and she either didn't have any specific goals or chose not to explain them. What I am concerned with is that Danni, though invited to this meeting, was treated with substantially more interest than if she were any other interested party simply because she was a police officer. It looks to me as if she and her partner used this to their advantage. And why? Danni is NOT investigating a specific crime relevent to that specific congregation. How many times do we have to go over this point? She wasn't on the job, she was just acting like she was on the job. It is my opinion that Danni did not effectively convey her CIVILIAN interest and instead blurred the line between personal and professional interest in such a manner that she evoked a substantially emotional, legalistic and defensive response. Taking advantage of your authority when in a civilian capacity, is not something I can applaud, even if in this particular case I support the basic cause. Does anyone want to correct me in my belief that none of this hubballoo would have transpired if she and Darryl were plumbers? And what did all this do for the larger issue?
Instead, she jeopardized her own job. She brought in Bill Bowen's name and possibly risked some damaging recourse for him. Hopefully that's not the case. She undermined the professionalism of her police department and this resulted in a verbal threat of a lawsuit. All this for a few minutes of come-uppance that in all liklihood that acheived little or nothing for the larger issue. All this because she didn't review her goals and de-escalate the situation long before she walked into the meeting.
I don't doubt that she is a decent enough person, nor a caring person. I believe she is. I also believe that in the larger sense, she accomplished very little and possibly risked a great deal more because she became so emotionally involved that she wasn't able to really assess the situation and the bigger picture. I believe her emotions clouded her judgement and clouded her ability to distinguish between an on the job assignment and a personal vendetta. That's potential fuel for serious abuses and corruption, I can't ignore that simply because I too, am horrified by what I've learned of the Watchtower's policies. I'm not saying that Danni is corrupt, nor do I believe she will be corrupt at some point in the future. But I believe she's acting like a loose cannon and it will only work to her detriment and possibly to the detriment of others. There's every reason to be pissed about what she's learned of their policies so far, but being too reactionary isn't going to help in the long run. This problem is bigger than uniformed police officer Danni. Without a specific crime, investigation into would need to be done at a higher or at the very least, interdepartmental or interstate/federal cooperational level to get to the root of the problem which is in Brooklyn. Or, you skewer them in the press.Danni, the best thing you can do is to weigh whether or not you can do more good as a police officer or as a six-dollar an hour security guard- which is what you'll be if you push the wrong buttons with those legal freaks in Brooklyn. All because of these careless methods you've been using. You are walking a fine line with a lawsuit loving group. I'm just encouraging you to refrain from jeopardizing yourself and others by being EXTRA CAUTIOUS in your dealings with members of this group.
To clarify, I'm glad Danni's incensed but I don't care for her methods. I guess in some peoples opinion's that makes me something akin to a child molester or watchtower sympathizer. I can't help it if someone wants to view me that way but that's completely off base, unfair and cruel. -
221
The meeting did not go well.
by Danni init would have taken more much more time to tell it all.
he told us the meeting would began as soon as the other brothers arrived.
danni: i will give you two.
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detective
And one other thing. I do believe I DID warn you to use caution, review your goals and be perfectly clear that you were not there on official business. I think that's when you implied I was a lawyer(?) or otherwise tried to laugh off my warnings? So please don't suggest that everyone was gung ho on your approach. Again, I'm glad you feel motivated, I'm just not a fan of abusing power.
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221
The meeting did not go well.
by Danni init would have taken more much more time to tell it all.
he told us the meeting would began as soon as the other brothers arrived.
danni: i will give you two.
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detective
I brought this up before and I'll do it again. In an earlier thread I warned you that you appeared to be perilously close to comprising professionalism in your "off duty" interest. As much as I'd like to cheer over a few elders squirming I think that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that you were not there on official business. There is no specific crime that you are investigating relating to this particular kingdom hall. Like so many others, you are deeply distressed by the organizational policy that prevents victims of abuse from receiving proper treatment and from seeing that victimizers pay the price for their crimes. However, there was no specific incident relating to that hall you were investigating. I appreciate your interest as a person. I still maintain that you have been blurring the lines of your professional interest and your personal interest. Either you were there in a professional capacity or you were not. Which is it?
The loose cannon approach is not going to be particularly beneficial. If your department wants to launch an investigation then I assume you would be assigned the case? But you were not. Were you approached by a victim at this particular hall? As far as I can tell, you were not. It seems your justifiable complaint is with the organzation- headquartered in Brooklyn. Therefore, you are looking at a situation that is out of your jurisdiction, are you not? Aside from contacting the FBI, what are your plans? You have no victim, no perpetrator and no suspicion of a crime within your jurisdiction- specifically this particular hall, do you?
Listen, I'd love to see the organization hang for it's hideous policies- the pedophilia issue is particularly grotesque. But I really think you've crossed a number of lines in this allegedly unofficial investigation. It's my opinion that you and your partner over-stepped bounds by throwing around the police officer mentality as if you were actually investigating a specific offense. If you were a plumber, I hardly think you would have caused such an uproar. You are a police officer who doesn't seem to know when she's on the clock or off it. I believe the term is "yahoo". Does that sound familiar? That's the slang term people in my area use when police/fire/ambulance employees are so enthused by their own seemingly powerful status that they can't clock off, if you will.
I am as outraged by things that go on as the next person but I really can't support the way things have come off so far with your inquest. It's nice to feel powerful, but you and your partner are not powerful in this situation. All you are doing is making some people tremble because they don't understand that you have no power over them as it stands. Yet you and your partner let them believe that you do. If you are going to start an investigation (though right now you have no basis for investigating this congregation), then do it! But seeing as you don't currently have even a suspicion of a crime within that congregation, then do not contact them again. You obviously didn't make it abundantly clear that your interest is not a professional one, which I think is pretty questionable behavior on your part. It's a terrible abuse of power that has seeped into your professional life by the contacting of your police chief.
This isn't Mayberry. If you can't see that you are dealing with a much bigger animal than those hapless men, then you aren't much of an investigator. I'm sorry, I don't usually go off on people but this is absurd. This is a sensleless approach that lost sight of it's goals- the victims! Let go of the power issues and start recognizing that from where you stand- without a specific crime- you've got nothing. So try being a concerned civilian and lay off the yahoo behavior before it backfires. This crazy behavior could cost you and others big time.