Evolution is a theory that explains where modern life forms came from and possible directions in which they are headed (we are still evolving). As such it is a mental construct used to explain reality. Many religions accept the theory of evolution, but that does not mean that they automatically promote peace. The problems in Southwest Asia go far deeper than the idea that getting rid of religion will solve them.
Dave
PrimateDave
JoinedPosts by PrimateDave
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IS EVOLUTION THE ANSWER?
by Dansk ini'm currently reading richard dawkin's book the ancestor's tale and it suddenly struck me that evolutionists believe all men are equal seeing that we all came from a common ancestor.
that being the case, would it not serve man to believe in evolution?.
turn on the t.v.
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PrimateDave
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how to make a new creation story?
by pallemar ini'm having a debate, with some mand, who claims, the creation story(genesis 1 ) is perfekt!
in the bibel, and cound't be better .
well i wanna disprof him:) he he!
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PrimateDave
Here is a quick and dirty cut-and-paste job from a flawed, yet imo remarkable, work that you can download for free over at infidels.org called Is It God's Word by Joseph Wheless. There may be far better works out there, but this one is the most accessible to me at the moment:
THE "DAYS" AND MATTER OF CREATION
A word of comment may be made in passing on a couple of points
which have given occasion to much concern and controversy, by the
attempt to "accommodate" revelation to the everyday facts of
science. It is argued that the "days" of creation may be used
allegorically or figuratively; that, as "a day with Yahveh is as a
thousand years," these Genesis "days" may well denote the
indefinite veons assigned by science to the vast work of universal
creation. (Cath.. Encyc., Vol. IV, p. 473, art. Creation.) But that
the old Hebrew writers of these primitive myths had no such
figurative notions, and my yom (day) meant exactly the solar day of
twenty-four hours, is very clear: six times, at the close of each
day's recorded work, it is declared, "and the evening and the
morning were the first day," or the second, or third, day, etc.
The Hebrew word yom (day) is used in the Old Testament 1153
times; its plural (yammim, days) 811 times. Always the word means
simply the twenty-four-hour solar day; always -- can we believe it?
-- except in these "six days" of Genesis i, where, instead of
meaning "day," as plainly written, it is piously expounded as
meaning "countless aeons of time" so as to make Genesis look like
a work of modern science! Quaint double usage is jumbled into a
single verse: "And Elohim called the light yom [day], and the
darkness he called layil [night]. And the evening and the morning
were the first yom [day]" (Gen. i. 5)! Here the light part of the
day is the hours between dawn and dark; the darkness is only the
hours between sundown and the next dawn; but together they form the
"first yom" -- countless aeons of the first process of creation!
Verily, the theologians are funny-mentalists!
And if each of the first six "days" are not days but aeons of
time, how about the seventh day? The gods (Elohim) "rested [Heb.,
shabath, the sabbath] on the seventh day" (Gen. ii, 2). If each of
the other six days was an unreckonable won, the seventh day (aeon)
of rest must, for proper recuperation from such vast and prolonged
labors, be of more or less like ample duration; so that, as only
six thousand brief years (not even a second of an aeon) have
elapsed since all the work of creation was finished, the gods must
be resting even yet -- as might be suspected from some evidence in
their creation.
Why "evening and morning" marking the "day" instead of morning
and evening, as is more natural and of all but universal usage in
speech? Simply because the Jewish day began, and yet begins, in the
evening, at sunset, and their "day" is from one sunset to another;
so in writing these myths it was conformable with Jewish customs to
put the evening as the beginning of the day. Moreover, all the
eight works of creation were stuffed into six days, so that Yahveh
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IS IT GOD'S WORD?
could rest on the seventh day, the Jewish sabbath, or day of rest.
In order to accomplish this, and Yahveh thus be made to appear to
institute and sanction the sabbath, two distinct works, the
creation of the seas and the dry land and the creation of trees and
plants, are assigned to one, the third day; and two other works,
the creation of the animals, and the creation of man and woman, are
crowded into another day, the sixth -- eight distinct works in all.
This obvious conclusion it is pleasing to find confirmed by
the Catholic Encyclopedia -- which makes many admissions without
seeming to see their logically fatal effects: "The third day and
the sixth day are distinguished by a double work, while each of the
other four days has only one production assigned to it"; and it
adds, curiously for it, but acutely and correctly: "Hence the
suspicion arises that the division of God's creative acts into six
days is really a schemation employed to inculcate the importance
and the sanctity of the seventh day" (Vol. VII, p. 311)! From this
it is palpably evident that the seven days of the ordinary calendar
week were in the inspired mind of the old Jewish Chronicler who
worked up the Hebrew creation myth from the Babylonian Epic of
Creation.
All these material works of creation, the earth and the seas,
the sun, moon, and stars, were not created by the fiat or by the
architectural skill of Yahveh out of nothing, for "ex nihil nihil
fit." From before the "beginning" of creation, or its constructive
works, the material earth itself existed, but simply was "without
form and void," or, in the Hebrew words, thohu (desolation) and
bohu (waste) (Gen. i, 2). And the material waters existed, for "the
spirit [wind] of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters" (i, 2);
the waters not being collected together into seas until the third
day (i, 9, 10). It is curious how the otherwise intelligent human
mind can so struggle through centuries to "accommodate" sense and
science to "what are patently early myths and naive, childish,
primitive folklore," as Charles P. Fagnani, D.D., frankly calls
these tales of Genesis.
End quote.
I'm not sure if this was what you were looking for, or if it will help. Keep in mind that Genesis chapter one was not written by Moses, but was very likely adapted from a foreign source by an Aaronid priest around the reign of King Hezekiah. Wheless calls the writer 'E', but later scholarship has called the writer 'P', and the combiner/editor of the 'J', 'E', and 'P' stories is 'R'.(See Who Wrote the Bible.) The story was written to stress the importance of the sabbath, as the same priest wrote the words of Exodus 20:11.
Dave -
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Drama Presented at the District Convention.
by Broken Hearted ini want to first thank who every posted the link to the 3 days of district convention.
i know to some of you that you are saying why would you want to listen.
well last weekend there was a convention in amherst massachussettes.
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PrimateDave
Broken, your post reminded me of one of the things that had irritated me the most about the meetings and assemblies. They always trumpeted how much we should appreciate the 'spiritual banquet' we were being given. Over and over again they would constantly repeat things like "do we appreciate the provisions of the faithful and discreet slave". Well, being told to appreciate what amounts to heaping portions of cold grits (no butter) and lukewarm water is not 'spiritual food'.
Dave -
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Tarot readers
by PrimateDave ini'm new to tarot.
i just got a hanson-roberts (similar to rider-waite-smith) tarot deck last week, and i have been getting familiar with the cards.
i also got a book, the complete tarot by teresa michelsen.
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PrimateDave
I've been away from the forum a few days. Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the different viewpoints, including skepticism and disbelief. Even if it is an entirely random process, I can still have fun with it. I seriously doubt that I'm going to 'fall under the influence of the demons' as I was warned when I was a Witness. Hey, if anyone in the WTS Writing Department is lurking here, you can use this! I have left the organization, practiced divination, and 'fallen under the influence of Satan and his demons'! Surely, I'm a warning example for all the faithful Dubs not to miss meetings, do personal study (only from approved publications), and spend a gazillion hours in service!
Dave -
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If the end is so close, are the elders trying to contact lost sheep?
by JH in.
i've been hearing left and right that the end is so close now.
ok, but it doesn't show in their actions.. no one is knocking at my door.....
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PrimateDave
I'm a bit partial to Pink Floyd (can't you tell?), and here's the lyrics to "Sheep".
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem.
What do you get for pretending the danger's not real.
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes.
Now things are really what they seem.
No, this is no bad dream.
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
Bleating and babbling we fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as you're told.
Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
Dave (of the 'who would want to be livestock?' class) -
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Ignoring Scriptures/Good points
by KW13 ini've made a few points to a lot of witnesses.
sometimes they've listened and sometimes they've moved on, changing the subject.
what scripture or good point brought you the most success?
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PrimateDave
{puts JW cap on}Respectfully, Honesty, these scriptures would not make any difference to me as a Witness.
The scripture from Daniel speaks of a resurrection to judgement. Witnesses are familiar with this concept. But first, remember the hard and fast scriptural rule that "he who has died has been acquitted of his sins." Every JW knows that at death sins are 'forgiven'. A person is judged after their resurrection based on their actions after their resurrection. At least that is the understanding. So, you would have to first disprove the doctrine about death erasing sin and justify the convoluted logic that a loving god would resurrect someone just to punish them.
The scripture from John simply wouldn't phase me at all. I would think (remember, Honesty, I'm not trying to be a jerk with this): "This Jesus freak thinks that I don't believe in Jesus, but I do." Make a JW think that you are attacking his belief in Jesus and watch him/her get on the defensive really fast.{takes JW cap off}
Dave -
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Ignoring Scriptures/Good points
by KW13 ini've made a few points to a lot of witnesses.
sometimes they've listened and sometimes they've moved on, changing the subject.
what scripture or good point brought you the most success?
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PrimateDave
Undercover, the creation account is a perfect example in my opinion of the problem with WTS interpretation of the Bible. To them the 'days' of Genesis chapter one are 'figurative', but then the rest of it just has to be taken literally. That turned out to be one of my biggest problems with their so-called scriptural interpretation. Anytime something doesn't quite fit, they try to change the meaning.
Why can't they just admit that the writer (in this case, probably an Aaronid priest in Jerusalem during the reign of King Hezekiah. See Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman.) actually meant literal days? After all, they reject evolution anyway. Why even attempt to fit with the facts of geology?
They can't ever admit to the fact of Evolution because of the psychology of previous investment. They can't make big doctrinal changes even in the face of glaring evidence because they would lose credibility with the current membership. If they had accepted evolution decades ago, they wouldn't look like such idiots today.
Sorry to get OT with this.
Dave -
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IF they were right
by KW13 inimagine you woke up in a paradise earth that was inhabited by jehovahs witnesses.
what would your reaction be?
personally i'd feel sick (if my perfect body would allow that lol) as eternity stuck with them, would be worse than hell.
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PrimateDave
Interesting read that Armageddon survivors diary. Not very realistic fantasy, though. In my mind, if they (the JWs) are right, it won't be the elders you have to worry about! The late JC and his thought police angels will be out in force to nip any of you Korah, Dathan, and Abiram types in the bud. Having unclean thoughts? Zap!! Feel like jacking off? Watch out that the earth doesn't open up to swallow you up!! Touch a gun and turn into a pillar of salt! At least that's my impression.
Dave -
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Tarot readers
by PrimateDave ini'm new to tarot.
i just got a hanson-roberts (similar to rider-waite-smith) tarot deck last week, and i have been getting familiar with the cards.
i also got a book, the complete tarot by teresa michelsen.
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PrimateDave
One alternate impression I got from The Complete Tarot Reader was that the suit of Cups stands for months. Therefore: Seven of Cups = seven months.
In the appendix of The Complete Tarot Reader: "In the sevens we choose our next challenge to focus on." "Sevens center around the idea of challenges, chosen by and for ourselves as part of our path toward personal mastery." Seven of Cups- "A challenge of values, emotions, dreams, or desires. Reaching a point in your life where you feel you can set your own goals, and trying to work out what those should be. Questioning the values your were raised with, and deciding for yourself what you believe in. Beginning to understand what drives your response to other people and your relationships, and learning how to choose positive life partners. Working through a childhood issue that has been blocking your progress in life. Giving up unproductive fantasies or dreams, and replacing them with dreams and hopes that are realistic and achievable."
Like I said before, I'm just learning.
Dave -
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Ignoring Scriptures/Good points
by KW13 ini've made a few points to a lot of witnesses.
sometimes they've listened and sometimes they've moved on, changing the subject.
what scripture or good point brought you the most success?
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PrimateDave
The problem is that unless they are doubting, questioning, and wondering already, you won't do much beyond getting them to go on the defensive. How does one keep the defensive barrier down? Arguing about religious dogma is often seen as a personal attack. And people who've been 'attacked' by the Witnesses are most likely to not answer the door or immediately get defensive/argumentative if they can't hide. So, you have to rely on an indirect method to get them to think. Perhaps citing examples of what so-called 'righteous' men did in Biblical times could be a good way to open a door. Personally, I think that 'righteous' Lot is a good example (A drunken man has sex with his own daughters. Try that today and see if anyone in the hall calls you a 'righteous' man!)
Besides, a single scripture cannot undo all the mental manipulation of five meetings a week. Witnesses are of the mindset that if they can't defend their position or refute your point, then all they have to do is look in the WT Library to find an answer. And we know the WTS has heard it all before. They probably have a select few in the Writing Department who monitor boards like this just to come up with counter arguments to questions and problems the R&F may face.
I actually find that it is more 'productive' to tell my new non Witness friends what JWs believe in the most direct way possible. I say things like: "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armageddon is almost here, and they think that God is going to kill over 6 billion people because they aren't Witnesses."
Dave