recently, there was a very nice thread in which one of our posters apologized for having the temerity to challenge barbara anderson.. i thought it was very nice to see that they made up and put the personal stuff aside.. however, i felt the need to call it like i really feel it - i was very put off by the barbara anderson reply in which she plugged her new promotional meeting.
it brought back memories of that horrid little affair from a couple of years back when she kept posting up "the greatest new thing about blood which will bring down the watchtower society is just around the corner -- and i could tell you but then i would have to kill you, etc."..
just like another jehovah's witnesses prophecy about the coming of the lord in our time.. i am beginning to wonder if perhaps the siren song of self-promotion is getting a little too strong for real life.. ok. i said it.. james - and saying it was not the easiest thing that i have ever done.
The good thing about us being out of the org is that you do not have to like everybody.
I certainly don't like everybody and not everyone likes me. It's great! If you don't like her then don't read her stuff, personally i think she has done a good job, that's enough for me.
Paul
hello - first may i apologise for capital letters my keyboard has gone screwy.
for the last several months i have been having meetings with two really nice women from the jw organisation.
i don't want to offend anyone by asking these questions i am simply trying to better understand how the watchtower came about without listening to too much anti stuff.
Now forgive me again please, but they are not prophecies in my opinion. Prophecies to me are about direct communication from the almighty to a man or men on the earth revealing His will. Simply applying some random method of study or maths to written words or even to non-christian structures, well that's not prophecy.
The point i am making is that they claim to be prophets, you've asked for some quotes as to whether they claim this, so i have provided them. If they claim to be prophets and they claim to make prophecies which do not get fulfilled then surely you have to ask yourself whether they are God's chosen people.
Notice in Deuteronomy the distinction between prophets and those who foretell dreams, either way if there sign or wonder does not take place notice what it tells you. And certainly there have been many signs from the JW's that haven't taken place and all this under their claim that they are prophets.
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. . . . For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect –- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" (Matthew 24:10-13;24 NIV).
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them –- bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping" (2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV).
History has shown that JW's have set dates that they claim to have prophesied. Whether or not you belive they prophesied is down to your interpretation of the word prophecy, but the point is they claim to prophesy. On the basis of the above scriptures, along with their WT articles i have quoted you it is up to you to decide whether or not they are God's chosen people, all i have shown you is scripture and their own quotes.
I wish you well in your journey.
Paul
hello - first may i apologise for capital letters my keyboard has gone screwy.
for the last several months i have been having meetings with two really nice women from the jw organisation.
i don't want to offend anyone by asking these questions i am simply trying to better understand how the watchtower came about without listening to too much anti stuff.
Now that's interesting digderidoo, so they do set themselves up as prophets? Do they provide evidence then or at least stories of prophetic visions? What they are? How they experience them etc?
Janey they made their prophecies through readin the book of Daniel and Revelations, they applied these to Matthew and Lukes account of the last days, and confirmed it with measurements of Egypt's great pyramid. They also applied a few single scriptures to rhese books and came up with dates, it wasn't a case of having a prophetic vision, it was through study of the bible and applying it to calculations and measurements of the Greta Pyramid in Egypt.
Here are a few examples of their prophecies,
1874 "Prophecy can not be understood until it has been fulfilled or is in the course of fulfillment. From 1874 to 1914 the prophecy concerning the Lord's coming was being fulfilled and could be understood, and was understood, by those who were faithful to the Lord and who were watching the development of events, but not by others." {CREA 290}
1874 "Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D. at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord's second presence was due." {CREA 298} [the day for a year basis is a technique used in Astrology known as Progressions]
1874 "The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D." {PROP 65}
1914 "The prophecy of the Bible, fully supported by the physical facts in fulfilment thereof, shows that the second coming of Christ dates from the fall of the year 1914." {WHAT} [written in 1932: see next quotation] 1914 "In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book 'The Truth Shall Make You Free.' In its chapter 11, entitled 'The Count of the Time,' it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spell-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man's existence into the decade of the 1970's. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia." {GKTY 209} [Claim that 'parousia' change from 1874 to 1914 came only in 1943, not in 1932 in WHAT, when the WTBTS completed a new chronological system, which included moving Jerusalem's destruction from 606 B.C. to 607 B.C.E. to keep the 1914 date while finally accounting for the non-existing zero year. Also see HIS2 133] 1914 "True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.. In view of this strong bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914 .." {TIAH 1908 ed 98-9} 1914-8 ".. the years 1914 and 1918 are specially marked dates with reference to his coming." {CREA 289/310} 1915 "we consider it an established truth, that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God will be accomplished by A.D. 1915. At that time the prayer of the church, ever since her Lord took his departure, - 'Thy kingdom come' - will be answered; and under its wise and just administration, the whole earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord" {TIAH 1915 ed 99} [Original contains '1914' instead of '1915'] 1918 "The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918. If this is true, and the evidence is very conclusive that it is true, then we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work." {WR Oct 1 1917 6149} 1918 "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of .. 1918, .. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates .. 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon .. 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need?" {WT May 15 1922 150} 1924-5 "After 1925 expect shortly Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.. No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, and those other men of old come forth in the glory of their better resurrection, of perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their post of honor and authority as his earthly representatives. The world and all the present conveniences will seen strange to them at first, but they will soon become accustomed to the new methods. They may have some amusing experiences at first; for they never saw telephones, radios, automobiles, electric lights, aeroplanes, steam engines, and many other things so familiar to us." {TWTP 224-6} 1925 "The great Pyramid of Egypt, standing as a silent and manimate witness of the Lord, is a messenger; and its testimony speaks with great eloquence concerning the devine plan (Isaiah 19:19).. Arius .. Waldo .. John Wycliffe .. Martin Luther [were all] part of God's Organization." {WT May 15 1925 148-9} Hope it helps in whatever you are looking for. Paul
hello - first may i apologise for capital letters my keyboard has gone screwy.
for the last several months i have been having meetings with two really nice women from the jw organisation.
i don't want to offend anyone by asking these questions i am simply trying to better understand how the watchtower came about without listening to too much anti stuff.
What I want to know is, does the Watchtower say CT Russell was a prophet or a scholar?
The Watchtower of April 1st, 1972, page 197, had this statement, "So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?...These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses..Of course it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?"
As you can see the Watchtower claims that Russell's bible students were prophets.
Paul
hello - first may i apologise for capital letters my keyboard has gone screwy.
for the last several months i have been having meetings with two really nice women from the jw organisation.
i don't want to offend anyone by asking these questions i am simply trying to better understand how the watchtower came about without listening to too much anti stuff.
This is scary, the OP is asking about the founders of the WT, which is a good place to start!! Can posters here not answer her, instead of going off on a tangent.
Paul
hello - first may i apologise for capital letters my keyboard has gone screwy.
for the last several months i have been having meetings with two really nice women from the jw organisation.
i don't want to offend anyone by asking these questions i am simply trying to better understand how the watchtower came about without listening to too much anti stuff.
Welcome to the forum.
All i can add is that CT Russell prophesied that Christ had invisibly returned in heaven in 1874 and that Armageddon was going to happen in 1914, now does that make him a prophet?
As for looking into other faiths, Russell was assistant editor to the Adventist magazine. He was part of the Millerite Adventist movement,which has an influence on his biblical prophesying. If you look at all the religions who have come from the Millerites.....Seventh Day Adventists, JW's, Christadelphians.....they all have date setting and last day prophesying in common.
As for the early JW founders religion, if you look into their history they weren't religious, they were bible students who debated and Russell published the Watchtower magazine. It was Judge Rutherford who played the part in organising it into the religion we see today, which ocurred during the 1920's and 1930's.
Paul
I do have a feeling that brother dumpster is not a jw if you read the comments he has made. It is quite typical thogh.
Paul
is this nessie??.
full article appears here www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1209118/is-nessie-google-earth.html.
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Is this Nessie??
Full article appears here www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1209118/Is-Nessie-Google-Earth.html
i know there's a handful here.. could you pm me to get in touch or respond to this thread.
for any who have my email or facebook listing could you contact me as i have some questions with regards to how you have worked step 3.. i am at a place now where i am wondering if aa is going to work for me anymore, 18 months in and i seem to be going around in circles on step 3 and could do with a bit of advice from those of you who can identify with this.
it's not just the god thing, it's also the idea of 'handing your will over', i just cannot conceive the idea of handing my will over to something else as i've done that for years as a jw.
Thanks Mad Dawg for your advice, maybe another home group would be the answer.
The key for me has been to ask myself what each step means for me today, where I'm at now. It's the underlying principle of the step, not the letter of the law, that keeps me sober.
I can see how the meaning of the steps changes Jankyn, that's a good point.
How do you know it works? If you don't drink, you get along better with other people, and you can stand to be around yourself, it's working. And so far, it's working for me. Hang in there, digeridoo.
Sounds about right, thanks.
Paul
i know there's a handful here.. could you pm me to get in touch or respond to this thread.
for any who have my email or facebook listing could you contact me as i have some questions with regards to how you have worked step 3.. i am at a place now where i am wondering if aa is going to work for me anymore, 18 months in and i seem to be going around in circles on step 3 and could do with a bit of advice from those of you who can identify with this.
it's not just the god thing, it's also the idea of 'handing your will over', i just cannot conceive the idea of handing my will over to something else as i've done that for years as a jw.
Then use google to check for their UK sites. They have them. You know how to do that?
Of course i do Blondie, your post sounds a little frustrated. I have googled for uk sites since my time in AA, i do use one secular site in particular, but as for face to face there is nothing other than AA in my city, with the exception of a place called Aquarius who are not a very good service, i did try them briefly, they advocate moderation anyhow.
The medical field in my area adopt a learned behaviour model when it comes to alcoholism. They will not use the word alcoholism, but prefer alcohol dependent, they do not adopt the disease model. With a learned behaviour model, the approach is to unlearn your behaviour therefore safe drinking becomes possible.
So you see in my area/city AA is the only option, the other option is the net for forums, etc which i do use and have been one of the tools in my box.
Paul
