Posts by serotonin

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

Thanks for the answers lovelylil.

No. Details in this account are not to be taken as literal.

So there's always been pain in human childbirth? I agree with that. So what does this mean? Doesn't it mean that God designed a world in which that pain was just a part of it, and it has nothing to do with when sin entered the world? Same with miscarriages, mothers dying during childbirth, babies being born deformed, etc. That was the plan right from the start - to make us suffer, even when we hadn't sinned!
Also, what in the world is Genesis 3:16 talking about then? If it's not to be taken as literal, what is really being said? What's it code for?

I don't know and frankly it doesn't matter anyway. What point are you trying to prove with this? Is it that parts of the Bible are not to be taken as literal? I already stated that.

Well the answer is no, humans were not living such long lifespans before the 'original sin'. So again, that's how God set it up. We were never meant to live very long, and it wasn't a punishment for sinning, because it was this way before sin entered the world. Also, looking at Genesis 5:3-32 and all the specific years mentioned, what is that code for? If it doesn't mean what it's saying, exactly what does it mean?

You are wrong with this one. If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then ALL the rest of mankind ARE descendents of them and we ALL inherited original sin. Which is what the bible says happened. Whether or not Adam and Eve were literally the first two people who existed or are representative of the first early humans (a group) it does not change the fact that original sin somehow entered into the world. And we are descendents of whomever the first humans were, thus we inherited that sin.

There was no first couple.
If it was a representative group, we're still not all descendants of this group. Humans had spread far and wide.

Again, not all the details are literal. Unless you believe there really was a fruit tree that controlled the knowlege of good and evil? The purpose of the fall "story" is to explain in simple terms that original sin entered the world.

I don't have a problem with that being a metaphor, I'm just talking about sin, whatever the first was supposed to be.

Who says he waited so long before he made himself known?

According to the Bible, it started when he was communicating with Adam and Eve (or the representative group of humans he knew would sin) 6,000 years ago. If it was earlier than that, it would seem mankind was getting on fine without sin until God decided to test those he knew would fail.

Only if you believe God uses these things to punish mankind for their sins. I personally do not believe that. I believe these things are freak acts of nature gone wrong and fall under the category of "unforseen occurances".

Nor do I, but as with 1 and 2, it shows that these things were just how God set things up. For us to suffer occasionally on an unstable planet. We could have been perfect and it would have still been like this.

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

In that case:

1) Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?

2) Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?

3) As most of us are not 'Adam and Eve's' descendants (whether that's a group of humans or a couple), their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins. Does the sacrifice for all humanity become meaningless, and if not, why was it necessary?

4) People had already made up gods earlier than 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before making himself known?

5) Natural disasters, things such as earthquakes and tsunamis, or things such as diseases - were they a result of the 'original sin'?

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

I'll put it simply.

Was there an 'original sin'?

If you answer yes, then what about the questions that raises?

If you answer no, why did Jesus die if not for our inherited sins?

I don't think I'm acting like a stubborn JW to ask that (on that note I was a 'born in' who never 'assimilated' with them). It just looks like a genuine question to ask.

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

Hmm. Except I'm not talking about the creation story. I'm talking about man's fall, whether it was a couple called Adam and Eve who ate forbidden fruit or a group of humans who sinned in some other way 6,000 years ago. Turning to Jesus and being grateful for his sacrifice is a big part of being a Christian. That part can't be swept under the rug.

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

lovelylil seemed to hint at it, but okay, if it's not a metaphor, then what about the questions that raises?

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

But if we're talking specifically about the fall of man, and the original sin that got passed on to every human, is it fair to call that a metaphor? If it is a metaphor, then why did Jesus come to Earth to sacrifice himself for us?

With mankind naming the animals too- even if it wasn't one man, but many, it was still supposed to have happened 6,000 years ago, which is much too recent.

The main thing though is that I don't feel you can, as a Christian, say there wasn't original sin. Much of the basis for being a Christian rests on that teaching.

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

Thanks for the article, lovelylil. Most of it looks fine to me - but I still see the fall (and therefore the reason for Jesus' death) as being a problem.

The article says:

Some Christians think belief in evolution undermines the uniqueness of humankind and the reality of evil and the fall. Not so. The Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as Neolithic farmers. It is perfectly feasible that God bestowed His image on representative Homo sapiens already living in the Near East to generate what John Stott has called Homo divinus, those who first enjoyed personal fellowship with God but who then fell most terribly from their close walk with God (Genesis 3.8). All those who disobey God and trust in their own wisdom in place of God’s law reiterate the historical fall in their own being (Ezekiel 28.11-19).

I think I covered that when I wrote:

If Adam and Eve were here 6,000 years ago (which they had to be if you follow the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus), then they weren't the first humans. We were on the scene much earlier than that.
If woman was already around, then what is the point of the story of man being lonely, and God making him a woman from his rib?
Adam is supposed to be the one who named the animals. Are we really supposed to believe that no one had named them until 6,000 years ago?
God 'cursed' the snake and made it crawl on its belly. What was it doing before 6,000 years ago? Flying?
Adam and Eve didn't realize they were naked. In a world full of clothed people, they didn't realize they were naked?
Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Doubtful. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?
Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?
If we are paying for the sins of Adam because we are his descendants- does this mean most of the planet doesn't have to worry because it's more likely we're the descendants of other people?
People had already made up gods earlier than 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before turning up and saying 'Hey guys, I'm the real one. I know I've let you worship other gods for thousands of years because you knew nothing of me, but now I'm a bit angry about it, so stop. Oh yeah, don't murder either. What, you don't like murder already and you wouldn't have got this far if you did? But I'm the moral law giver! Ah screw it, I'm killing you all for talking back to me!'
Perhaps God chose one couple from all the humans to test. If God was testing this one couple and they failed his test (which he would have known they would, seeing as this is God!) why put hardships on the rest of the humans around at the time who didn't fail him? Christians say God wants people to be good, yet in this case, even if they were, their efforts were in vain because God tested the ones he knew would fail. The logic also goes against the story of Soddon and Gomorrah, where God says if even one person can be found worthy, he won't take drastic action.
Obviously most of us are not 'Adam and Eve's' descendants, and their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins. The sacrifice for all humanity is meaningless.
What then, was the whole point of Jesus coming to Earth and dying on a cross?

28

God-guided Evolution

by serotonin_wraith in

it's a lot to get through, but if anyone gets through it all and disagrees with my position, i'd love to know why because i'd like to make this more solid.

i don't think i've covered everything yet.

also if you just have helpful pointers.

serotonin_wraith

Excellent points Awakened, thank you.

Others are saying God-guided evolution isn't an issue. If it's a deist god they're talking about, I agreed that was a possibility. But the Christian god? Can anyone answer some of the questions that raises?

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith