Posts by serotonin

15

Is it easier for a witness (vs Christian) to stop believing in God?

by Guest with Questions in

i dont have any statistics but am curious if there could be any truth to it; that it might be easier for a witness to stop believing vs a christian.

i dont see this at any of the churches i have attended; people leaving in droves with some totally discarding any belief.. 1 the jw org is the only truth.

you question its authority, then you question god.

serotonin_wraith

I can't decide either way.

I was raised not to believe anything from the other churches, so after leaving the JWs, it was easy enough to become atheist. It was easy enough for me to leave because I would have rather died than worshipped such a sexist, homophobic being.

With Christians, alot are taught to believe in hell. That's one fear that may have been harder for me to shake off. But with alot of Christians, they're very casual in their belief. With the JWs, they make it more a way of life, so it could be harder to break away from that.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

Good points. It made me think alot. Indoctrination is a form of teaching, yet very different to the type I was referring to. Both are imparting knowledge. I still hold to the belief that knowledge of a particular religious worldview cannot be proved in the same way as other things, and is extremely biased. Perhaps I should have been more specific with what I was saying. Compare religious indoctrination with religious teaching-

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic.aspx?topic=teaching_about_religion

The public school curriculum may not, therefore, include religious indoctrination in any form (including hostility to religions or religion in general). Such teaching would constitute state sponsorship of religion and would violate the freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment.

Religious indoctrination, however, is not the same as teaching about religion.

The school's approach to religion is academic, not devotional.
The school strives for student awareness of religions, but does not press for student acceptance of any one religion.
The school sponsors study about religion, not the practice of religion.
The school exposes students to a diversity of religious views; it does not impose any particular view.
The school educates about all religions; it does not promote or denigrate any religion.
The school informs students about various beliefs; it does not seek to conform students to any particular belief.

http://www.vusst.hr/ENCYCLOPAEDIA/indoctrination.htm

In the philosophy of education, the concept of indoctrination refers to unethical influencing in a teaching situation. Indoctrination means infiltrating (drilling, inculcating etc.) concepts, attitudes, beliefs and theories into a student’s mind by passing her free and critical deliberation. When - on a general level - we define indoctrination in this way, it is easy to say that the indoctrinative teaching is morally wrong and that teachers or educational institutions should not practise it.

...teaching is indoctrination if the outcome is an "indoctrinated person".

The ground of the beliefs of such a person are believed to be untenable, or beyond rational reasoning. An indoctrinated person holds her conviction despite of the counter evidence.

When teaching facts, there is no counter evidence. It is not irrational to believe in these things and pass them on to the next generation. It is how our species aquires knowledge.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

For religion to be eliminated it would need to be replaced by something else.

Reality.

Plenty of people don't believe in any religion, and they do just fine.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

Wow... just wow.
The dictionary definition you gave supports me. In a discussion in which English is the language of choice, I would prefer all the words used to be in accordance with an English dictionary. I'm sorry about that, it's just how language and communication works.
'Aggresive' and 'intolerant' are poorly chosen words to describe my behaviour. You may have got their meanings wrong too, if you don't like to use dictionaries. But from my understanding of those words, I haven't acted that way at all. It's just a fact that the dictionary lists the meanings of words. Except in your head, apparently. When you say I hold it high it's like saying I hold gravity to be real. Yes. Anyone who doesn't deserves ridicule.
I haven't given any hate filled comments. Debates can get heated, not usually hateful. But those words do look similar so I can understand if you got them mixed up.

Can one make a new world based on goose stepping; anyone that disagrees is consider a threat and labled as stupid a retard to be done away with?

No. Have I said that? No.

I haven't labelled you in any way.
You continue to think that non religious people hate religion and want to do away with it. I have explained several times that people are moving away from religion- that's it. They just see no good reason to believe. It's a calm and gradual change of mind.

Science has been misused. Religion teaches their followers to kill. Luckily, not everyone follows this. You say you're not part of any organized religion, but you do follow the bible, and the Bible says to kill people. People don't misuse religion when they kill- they are doing what their religion tells them to do.
And again, even if other problems come along in the future, why can't we think more about the problem of religion? You don't refrain from locking up a murderer because there are more to take his/her place.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

writetoknow,

What I view as indoctrination is so, according to multiple dictionaries. Changing the definition is alright if you want to fool yourself, but you'll find the rest of us use the proper meanings.

You cannot use the same reasons I gave (the dangers of religion) for wanting to keep religion. Religion is the cause of these problems.

I'm not sure how you can say indoctrination is similar to teaching. Teachers can prove things and it helps people learn facts. Indoctrination does neither.

I haven't targeted only Christians. If anyone else has you will have to ask them about it. Perhaps they focus on that religion because it is the most dominant where they live. I've debated muslims too. I'll debate someone of any religion, it's just harder to find those people.

I haven't said all people support me, just that Europe is moving away from religion. If other people want to end religion by physical means, you will have to ask them about it. I don't know of anyone who is suggesting such a thing.

If religion is outlawed, then yes, that is oppression. Where have I said I want religion outlawed? Where have I said rational discourse would be upheld by laws such as the ones you are presenting? These flights of fancy are wonderful to read, but in no way relate to anything I've said.

People do like to have something to look up to (worship may be too strong a word). People may even kill over money, or because they feel patriotic, and I've said that if those things happen, we can deal with them then. You are saying 'Do not get rid of religion even though it kills people, because people will kill over something else.' It's like saying I shouldn't lock up a murderer, because there are other murderers in the world who will still murder anyway.

This nice 'pie in the sky' is already happening. Look at the nations that are moving away from religion. People have better health, better income, more intelligence... You seem to think it will all go terribly wrong, while the evidence is already showing that it isn't.
Man already governs himself without scripture. I think the only laws found in both the Bible and the law of the land are don't murder and don't steal. Also, don't lie (but that's only when it's perverting the course of justice).

Your post reads like a movie script- you cannot know all these terrible things will happen. They clearly aren't happening if you look. And if you believe it is God's will that religion will come to have a smaller voice, why are you fighting against it? Don't you want this to happen?

93

How the Religious View Homosexuality

by serotonin_wraith in

for people who are still religious, what are your views on gays?.

for me (an atheist) it goes against my own morality to think of them as sinners or somehow doing wrong, and yet in the bible it teaches that it is wrong.

it's one of the main reasons i could never go along with the jws.. i'm curious how religious people address this issue.

serotonin_wraith

smellsgood,
I can agree with many of your points. There is an unspoken rule between most of us that causing suffering is wrong. The 'law of nature', if you will.
I would say we have that standard because it has been proven to help us all survive.
I agree we should all be looking at what we believe. It's by doing that that we came to outlaw slavery, give women equal rights and think better of homosexuals. There may be more changes to come- perhaps we will all feel that eating animals is wrong in the future. Perhaps atheists won't be discriminated against in America.
You call atheism a belief, but this is not true. Atheism is a lack of belief. One can be a strong atheist and say that all gods are not real, but in order to be called an atheist, all you need to do is fill the criteria of not believing in a god. It doesn't mean you have to believe in evolution, equal rights for gays, allowing abortion, etc. Those are seperate issues.
We all think the same about not wanting to cause suffering, for the most part. If a religious person was to say the only reason they don't rape or kill people was because they had to answer to a god, I would be very worried. A belief in a god is not necessary.

Are all biological and chemical functions simply a way of 'preserving' the species?

No. Men have nipples, in what way do they preserve the species? We have the appendix, which is not needed for our survival, and which could in fact, kill us. We can catch allergies, which is when the body overreacts to what it considers a danger, and causes more damage to us by doing so.
With the reactions going on within us that make harming others difficult, they have been proven to help us survive.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

I too, stated that experience of a god didn't have to mean a Christian god. I listed many other examples.

You're right when you say I cannot prove that there is not a god. I can disprove the Christian god, but can I disprove some kind of creator who started everything off? No. However, I am not the one making the claim. It is the person who believes in a god who must back up that claim. Can you disprove the magical invisible pixie? No. But that doesn't mean that it must automatically exist, or that there is even a remote chance it exists.

You try to use the word 'indoctrination' to mean any kind of teaching. It does not apply. Children at school are not brainwashed, which is what indoctrination is. I don't mind what harsh things someone wants to say about me, I'm pointing out the flaw in using the word indoctrination as you do. I haven't termed it as the worst word in the world either.

You're right when you say people move towards religion. You are wrong when you say the number is greater than those leaving it. Look back on the statistics I gave for churchgoers in the UK. Look at how Europe is becoming less religious.

The truth is not always found inbetween two incompatible claims. If I said that I had a million dollars in the bank and you didn't believe me, would that mean I had half a million in the bank? Would it mean I had a quarter in the bank? I may not even have a bank account at all. Making a claim does not automatically make it 50% likely.

You repeat a couple of mistakes, which I had hoped I'd cleared up long ago. Perhaps you missed them. Religion HAS diminished WITHOUT violence. I do not want to indoctrinate anyone to not believe in a god. I would be no better than those who teach religion to their children at a young age. And no, I do not HATE religion. I am scared for what danger it brings, and I hate certain effects religion has brought. If people want to have religion and believe what makes them happy, I'm cool with that. Unfortunately, they cannot keep it to themselves.

There is not a war going on against religion. There is more of a discussion with religious people by those who worry where religion is leading us. Words do not kill people.

And I'm curious, if you do not believe in a particular god, where are you getting your information from that there will be a war to end religion?

16

What was the biggest thing that helped you when you were leaving?

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

for me, the support of this site was invaluable as i had had years of couped up emotions.

always being told that if you are sporitually weak, it is your fault.

i actually swallowed it and tried to be a good jw.

serotonin_wraith

Wanting freedom was the big thing for me. The religion impacted practically every part of my life, and I'd had no say in whether or not I should have even been raised as a JW.

I got over the fear of death easily enough by coming to the conclusion that even if it was all true, I would STILL rather die with my morals intact than follow such a vindictive, evil god. After researching, I came to the conclusion that religion (any religion) is bogus anyway.

76

How do you see the world heading if all religion was eliminated?

by Guest with Questions in

many, like dawkins, think that religion is the root of all evil.

hypothetically, if all religion was eliminated and all people stopped believing how would you see the world in a few years?

with atheism on the rise do you think that society will improve or deteriorate?.

serotonin_wraith

Gregor:

Fun to discuss but of course you'll never know. It will never happen. People will never give it up voluntarily...

It is already happening in places. People are giving up their beliefs voluntarily all the time.

Cog, you're right. People do believe they have the right to kill people who don't agree with them. They believe this because their religious holy books command them to.

93

How the Religious View Homosexuality

by serotonin_wraith in

for people who are still religious, what are your views on gays?.

for me (an atheist) it goes against my own morality to think of them as sinners or somehow doing wrong, and yet in the bible it teaches that it is wrong.

it's one of the main reasons i could never go along with the jws.. i'm curious how religious people address this issue.

serotonin_wraith

I believe human morality comes from our need to survive.

Working together and not killing each other allows for humans to be better off. We are all reliant on each other. We do to others as we would like them to do to us, because we do not wish to die or be harmed. We also try to treat others well because it is human nature to do so.

Whatever chemical reactions are going in the brain, they make it hard for us to ignore a crying baby, for example. We have no need to kill off anyone who doesn't 'measure up' because the human race isn't going to die out as a result. We are trying to find cures for these 'defective' people.

Not everyone contributes to society, but it depends how specific you want to get on the issue. A disabled child's smile can contribute to another person feeling happy. After being given help (instead of being killed) Stephen Hawking has done much to add scientific knowledge to the world. Regardless, contributing to society is not necessary to be allowed to live.

Survival of the fittest doesn't always apply. It may do if we are fighting another race or species, but in these cases we are not.

Are you suggesting morality comes from the Bible? Why then, have we moved away from slavery, stoning disobedient children, persecuting homosexuals, treating women as inferior, etc etc?

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith