Posts by serotonin

17

100,000-year-old Human Skull Found

by Legolas in

jw
friends

100,000-year-old skull delights scientists.

chinese researchers hail "greatest discovery since peking man".

beijing - an almost complete human skull fossil that could date back 100,000 years has been unearthed in china, state media said on wednesday, hailing it as the greatest discovery since peking man.. last month's find in xuchang, in the central province of henan, was made after two years of excavation just as two archaeologists were leaving for the lunar new year break, the china daily said.. "we expect more discoveries of importance," li zhanyang, archaeologist with the henan cultural relics and archaeology research institute, was quoted as saying.. the fossil consists of 16 pieces of the skull with protruding eyebrows and a small forehead.. "more astonishing than the completeness of the skull is that it still has a fossilized membrane on the inner side, so scientists can track the nerves of the paleolithic ancestors," li was quoted as saying.. besides the skull, more than 30,000 animal fossils, and stone and bone artifacts were found.. "the pieces of the human skull showed up just when archaeologists were going home for the spring festival," the newspaper said, referring to the new year holiday which officially begins next month.. peking man was discovered in the 1920s near beijing and dates back roughly to between 250,000 and 400,000 years.. http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/296725.

serotonin_wraith

There are many dating methods used, and if they all match up, they could be reliable.

http://darwiniana.org/datingmethods.htm

75

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith in

if you're here, it's likely you were once fooled by what the jws believe.. back then, i expect you thought you were smart.

you thought you could tell if you were being lied to.

yet, they got past your mental defenses and sucked you in.. knowing this, how can you be sure your current religious beliefs are true?.

serotonin_wraith

Yes Vinny, you sure showed me.

As you're in the business of deceiving yourself to feel good I'll let you believe you 'trounced' me, that I didn't answer your points and that I actually did say "There is no god", not "I lack belief in one". You can have the final personal laugh too if you like...

19

Female Adults Praying In The Company of Male Children

by serotonin_wraith in

just a simple question.. within the jws, if a woman needs to pray for the group because no baptized man is present, she has to cover her head as a mark of respect/submission (take your pick).

it applies even if the male is a young child.

my question is, does the rule still apply if there's a male baby present?

serotonin_wraith

The male has to be baptized. But, yes, it is pure silliness.

Thanks. Must be my rusty memory - I thought I remembered it just being unbaptized publisher kids when I saw the cloth wearing scene.

75

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith in

if you're here, it's likely you were once fooled by what the jws believe.. back then, i expect you thought you were smart.

you thought you could tell if you were being lied to.

yet, they got past your mental defenses and sucked you in.. knowing this, how can you be sure your current religious beliefs are true?.

serotonin_wraith

You're mixing evolution with abiogenesis and cosmology. Once the spark of life started on this planet, natural selection took over to create complex living things. Not chance.

Nobody knows how life started yet. It didn't come from nothing. It came from 'stuff' that was here already. The Earth formed as chunks of rock fused together thanks to gravity. They came from the matter that circled our sun as it formed. Our sun formed as gases got closer and closer together. The gases came from the explosions of other stars- as they died, they sent their matter flying outward. The gases came from only three gases in the beginning- hydrogen, helium and lithium, I think, which later formed the heavier elements.

The simpler gases came from a single point referred to as the Big Bang. What was there before that nobody knows yet. Whatever it was, I don't think it was nothing. I think it was something, but I don't know what it was yet. I'm not arrogant enough to think I do.

So no, I do not think these things came from nothing. I do think complex things can come about over lots of time, naturally. The conditions needed for a planet with life are rare - right distance from the sun, etc. But when you consider there may be a billion billion planets on which the conditions weren't just right, and a giant vaccuum called space in which no life exists either, I don't see a universe created for life. I see one speck of dust that happened to fall in just the right place.

Imagine a room with an ant in it. What's the chances of throwing up a penny and hitting the ant? Pretty low. Now imagine millions of pennies being thrown left, right and centre. If one hits the ant, woop de doo. It's not so impressive when you see all the other pennies that missed, and all the other places in the universe where life doesn't exist.

19

Female Adults Praying In The Company of Male Children

by serotonin_wraith in

just a simple question.. within the jws, if a woman needs to pray for the group because no baptized man is present, she has to cover her head as a mark of respect/submission (take your pick).

it applies even if the male is a young child.

my question is, does the rule still apply if there's a male baby present?

serotonin_wraith

Just a simple question.

Within the JWs, if a woman needs to pray for the group because no baptized man is present, she has to cover her head as a mark of respect/submission (take your pick). It applies even if the male is a young child. My question is, does the rule still apply if there's a male baby present? How about one growing in the womb, who in the eyes of their god would still be a person?

75

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith in

if you're here, it's likely you were once fooled by what the jws believe.. back then, i expect you thought you were smart.

you thought you could tell if you were being lied to.

yet, they got past your mental defenses and sucked you in.. knowing this, how can you be sure your current religious beliefs are true?.

serotonin_wraith

Zico,

I 'm still bothered about the time you said Christianity was worse than the Ku Klux Klan

I can't remember exactly what I put now. In context, I think it was about how beliefs can be dangerous. Believing black people are inferior can lead to some terrible actions, but believing in a god can lead to many more negative actions, some more subtle than others. I can't find that post now.

Do you use your "rational mind" to look for alternative explanations to all the people you meet? After all, shouldn't you be consistent?

I would if I was the only person who saw them and they were from the past, but I believe people I see are real because I can interact with them, and I don't just get a feeling they're answering me, I hear it and see it. If I was stood in the middle of the street talking to myself, I hope someone would be kind enough to get me some help.

It's difficult to comment on your experience as I don't know what it is. I know the mind can be tricked...

Vinny,

I have answered some of the questions. The fact you don't acknowledge that gives me no reason to answer the rest for you. On the plus side, I think you're doing a better job of showing people how irrational dogma is than I ever could.

"Evolution is just silly, how can we be here thanks to chance?"

"It isn't chance, it's natural selection."

"Poor atheists, thinking it's all chance."

"Umm, pardon? Are you reading what I'm putting? You're the one saying it's chance, not me or anyone else who understands evolution."

See? Well, you probably won't.

75

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith in

if you're here, it's likely you were once fooled by what the jws believe.. back then, i expect you thought you were smart.

you thought you could tell if you were being lied to.

yet, they got past your mental defenses and sucked you in.. knowing this, how can you be sure your current religious beliefs are true?.

serotonin_wraith

Burn,

Why what?

Did "evidence" supply the animus for Mozart or Michaelangelo, Bach or Beethoven--or was it the Divine Flame in their bosoms? Can you reduce the Suite Bergamasque or the Sistine Chapel to strictly evolutionary algorithms? Are we merely the agglomeration of countless atoms and our genius the result of electrochemical interactions or are we "created in the image of God"? Are beauty, love, free will, and consciousness merely illusions or are they rooted in a transcendent reality beyond the senses? Answer these.

Were these people trying to answer questions about the universe? I don't think they were, I think they were being creative and making things for the pleasure of themselves and others. Feelings are fine, but I'm talking about basing what you think reality is purely on feelings. I don't see that as a good thing.

Beauty and love are very much subjective. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there can hardly be a transcendent reality in which there is an ultimate form of beauty, or the knowledge of what pure beauty would be.

Same with love. We all don't love the same person. People are drawn to all kinds of other people.

I think these things can be explained in terms of evolution. Species that can love are more likely to stay with their partners and help raise children, giving them a better chance of survival. If we didn't love our children, we may leave them to fend for themselves.

Looking around us and seeing beauty in the world is going to make us care more about what happens to our planet. We may not survive as a species if our home is damaged, so it seems natural to me that an appreciation for our surroundings is a good trait to have and pass on.

I don't think we have free will in the sense you think of it. I think we're limited by the physical. I can't float across the street, for example. How about when our ancestors had smaller brains? They couldn't invent aeroplanes or electricity. While we had to build on the knowledge of generations before us to get to the point where we could, I think it would have been impossible for early humans to have thought in that way, simply because they didn't have the brain capacity to do so. If they were limited by their physical bodies, then I can't see how it's different for us.

I don't know if there is a seperate consciousness outside the brain. I'm pretty sure if I shot myself in the head everything about me as a human would stop. I don't see any reason to believe I exist after death. As far as I'm aware, I didn't exist before death, which tells me whatever I am, it developed as my brain developed in the womb. My consciousness and my physical body seem so connected I cannot see my thoughts existing without my brain. With tests now, we can see that different parts of the brain are affected when people think in certain ways. A part for memory, a part for 'knowing oneself', etc. It makes more sense to think of myself as a part of the body, rather than a seperate entity.

If there is anything after death, why do you object to God being involved? If there is the spiritual, why not the Spirit? If there is the immaterial, why not the immanent? If there is that which we perceive and understand, could there be the something that is beyond all our knowledge and understanding? We build machines that understand chess, but they are incapable of understanding beauty or love. Can our own intelligence and programming be similarly limited? Answer these.

I don't reject the idea there may be a god. Anything is possible. Maybe aliens are controlling us, maybe the Egyptians were right all along and it's their gods that are real, maybe this is all a dream some giant is having. There's no reason to believe in any of that, and most of us don't think deeply about those possibilities, and yet it's exactly the same with God. There's just as much reason to believe in God as there is to believe in those things. I'm staying consistent, and you're making an exception for this one thing.

If there is a spiritual realm, maybe there are spirits. If Middle Earth exists, maybe there are talking trees. Again, apply the point to something else and it's easy to see how unsatisfying the argument is. If there was any reason to believe in a spirit realm or Middle Earth, I would certainly take more notice of those who believe in spirits or trolls.

I think there is plenty beyond our understanding. I'm happy finding out in due time as we grow in knowledge. Like I said to Chalam, you are saying you have the answers. You're saying you know there actually IS a god, and that you've narrowed it down to a specific one, without researching the 3000 others. I say I don't know if there is life after death, but you are saying there is, and that you know how to get there. Are you really being humble when you say you're sure of all these things?

I do think we are limited. Take this example. Our eyes can only sense a tiny fragment of the light spectrum. So already our senses are limited, and the information going to our brains is limited. When you look out of your window, that's not pure reality you're seeing. It's a watered down limited view of everything there is out there. Even other animals can see things we can't.

I'm a long way off torturing anyone to accept reality! I don't agree with that. Just thinking rationally and looking at evidence can cure people. I was raised to believe Adam and Eve were the first humans made. Then I discovered the truth. Does it bother me to know I had the wrong worldview? Absolutely, and I don't think you're being completely honest when you say it's okay for people to live in a delusional state. It is not okay, we usually help people who believe in crazy things. And if their beliefs make them do crazy things which can affect others, then reality is definitely the way to go.

Vinny,

It looks to me as if you are wasting time talking to an invisible friend because you want to be greedy and live forever, where you're actually lucky to get any time at all on this planet.

Much of the rest of the message is repeating things I've answered already, I'm afraid. The same bogus 'chance' thing, for example.

An atheist lacks belief in a god, it doesn't mean they have to say one definitely doesn't exist. I'm open to it all - aliens, giants, trolls and gods. I don't discriminate.

The universe isn't organized. Planets smashing into planets, stars exploding, galaxies colliding. It's a mess.

Once you understand evolution, you can see that WE evolved to fit the conditions of the planet, not the other way round. And that even if the chances of conditions being right for life to start (not evolve, start) were tiny, there's so many planets in the universe for it to have happened once, here, without believing some intelligence must have been behind it. One planet out of a billion billion. Looks about right if you believe it was lucky for conditions to be right for life.

Your post is too long, sorry. I'm looking at it all but I can't be bothered giving you all the answers. It's not because I don't have them, it's because I know it'll be a waste of my time. I've already given you details for finding out how complex things arise, and you've completely ignored it and rambled on about how it makes no sense. You're too closed minded to have a conversation with.

Like you, the author of the article does not know much about evolution. The sooner these fraudsters/intellectually challenged can refrain from lying to people, the better off we'll all be. Evolution is a fact like the earth is round and smoking is bad for your health. It just is.

Okay, now I've stopped. It's too much to go through. Can't you just stick to one thing at a time instead of this stab stab stab stab approach, piling the info so high it takes ages to unpick it all?

Chalam,

Ahh, an easier message to digest, thank you!

I agree, a chess program can beat us all at chess and even now it is beating the world chess champions, but would you want a computer to make the simplest of decisions for you? Answer is most likely no, you feel you have more wisdom than the most 'clever' computer on earth. I believe that is because we are made in God's image, but my PC or a dolphin isn't.

It depends on the circumstances. Let's say I wanted to go see a friend the other side of the country. Do I use my brain to plan out a route, or do I pull up a map and use that? I would base my decision on which way to go on the information in the computer. A human may have created the map, and then put it into the computer, so let's consider finding the quickest route, how much gas/petrol I'll need, etc. Now the human falls behind, or doesn't have the capabilities to find out the information quickly without the computer.

Would I want an animal making decisions for me? If I was a blind man with a guide dog, then yes, I would want the dog to make decisions for me, mainly about which direction to walk in. I can think of other examples too. When we feel content using our brains, we do, but when we see a better way, we're quite capable of letting other animals and machinery make the decisions for us.

I agree, but can I 'quantify' it beyond that? Every time I consider 'what came before the beginning' my only answer can be God. You could answer, 'something else' but what came before that? 'Infinity' I hear you answer! Well God is infinite ;)

A god could be infinite, or the universe could be infinite, or something else could be infinite. Which of these do we know exists? The universe. It's less of a leap to think the universe always existed than it is to think a being we've never seen always existed. We know the universe is real.

Or maybe saying what came before the beginning is like saying what's north of the north pole? Nothing, yet the north pole still exists.

I believe I am a spiritual being. I believe I have a soul and a spirit. I cannot see physically this aspect to myself or anyone else because it is part of the 'unseen' in those verses. HOwever, I feel it is there and I feel when it is not there when someone dies and I look at their body.

It's all based on feelings, and feelings are not always trustworthy. Like I put in the first post, people here felt they were in the one true religion before. Those feelings turned out to be a misrepresentation of reality. You use faith to believe in Yahweh, but you would never use it to believe in any other god because then, it would be silly to you.

I believe there is no second chance (re-incarnation etc.) so I urge people to be 100% happy with their answer before they take the plunge, which could come at any time for any of us. Forget Armageddon, death is the thing to fear but I have lost any fear of that!

You've just dismissed thousands of years of Buddhist teachings there, from men who spent their whole lives dedicated to exploring their 'spiritual' side. It's easy enough to do when you're not a Buddhist, isn't it? But if you had been raised in that religion, and taught that reincarnation was real, maybe you'd believe in that now instead of Christian teachings. Is it a lucky coincidence you happen to believe in the same religion most people around you believe in?

I don't fear death. I've seen quite a few dead bodies as part of my job (mass murderer! Ha, no, at a nursing home!). I don't fear not existing any more than I fear being unconscious when I go to sleep. If I'm not aware, I won't care. But if there is a god and an afterlife, I'd be terrified hoping I'd picked the right god to worship in the right way. I'm surprised you're not. There are more gods to consider than the one of the Bible, and even more religions, with a lot claiming to be the one true way to eternal life.

Do I believe in aliens? My answer is number 3. They could exist, and a god could too. But I'm not going to act as if they do, or it does, unless I have any reason to. I'm not going to start communicating telepathically with any aliens that may be out there, or with a god. When there's no reason to believe in something, we tend to live our lives as if they don't exist, until we're proven wrong.

For me, atheism is a tough faith to defend, there are too many unknowns.

It's a lack of belief in a god, and that's it. It's not a worldview, a philosophy, anything. You can be atheist and believe a magic fairy created humans at 3pm last Saturday, and gave them memories going back years. Being an atheist says nothing about what a person does believe, just like you not believing in Allah says nothing about what you do believe.

Not every religion is true, they can't be. Think of Muslims and Christians - one group believes Jesus died for our sins, the other believes he was just a prophet. They can't both be right. So we know for a fact there are millions of people in the world who are wrong about this, whether it's the Christians, the Muslims, or both. But talk to them, and they are so sure they have it right. They 'feel' they have the right religion. It's easy for you to see when another religion is wrong, but the only way to see every religion objectively is to be outside them all.

Like when you say to try different churches, you're talking about Christianity. That's not the only religion. There are thousands, and thousands of gods. Shouldn't I be researching them all? I don't think 'Hmm, I wonder if the Christians are right' for the same reason you don't think 'Hmm, I wonder if Zeus worshippers were right'. It's a waste of time contemplating it. The only reason I ever believed in the Biblical god was due to childhood indoctrination and living in a mostly Christian society. Once you can understand your beliefs are based on where you happened to be born, it's easy to see it all fall away. At least it was for me.

75

If You Were Wrong About The JWs, Maybe Your Current Beliefs Aren't True

by serotonin_wraith in

if you're here, it's likely you were once fooled by what the jws believe.. back then, i expect you thought you were smart.

you thought you could tell if you were being lied to.

yet, they got past your mental defenses and sucked you in.. knowing this, how can you be sure your current religious beliefs are true?.

serotonin_wraith

Hey Chalam,

The consciousness of computers- I don't think they're 'dumb' for a start, just try playing chess against one! I think the idea of a soul is a tricky one. Breaking it down, our consciousness may just be electrical signals within the brain, making sense of the universe through our five senses, or 'filters'. We can't see or hear as well as some animals, yet our limited senses give us a representation of reality we feel comfortable with. But there is more we cannot sense at present. We don't have the complete picture at all. I was watching a program on dolphins earlier, they experience the world through sound mostly. Are they wrong? No. Are they seeing true reality? No, and neither are we. I don't think any animal has evolved to the point where it can sense all the wavelengths of light, all the sound waves, and so on. So knowing who 'we' are is difficult to determine. We are somewhat limited.

An atheist is free to think what they want about 'spirituality', the soul, consciousness, etc. These things may exist without a god. After watching plenty of shows on androids and robots and holograms, I have the same questions too. But thinking Jesus died for my sins isn't going to solve them. They will be solved with evidence, not feelings.

You say you cannot grasp the concept of infinity. You apply that characteristic to your god easily enough. I don't think it's too hard to grasp. Think of the biggest number you can, then keep adding to it. It goes on and on, and when you think it's gotten quite long, just keep going. There's no reason to stop.

You say you cannot explain the 'spiritual' realm. You are limited by your physical make up, as I am. And yet you try to explain the spiritual realm, and you say that you know there is a god, and that you know which god is real. It baffles me, because if you 'cannot explain the spiritual realm', what are doing trying to explain the spiritual realm?

With faith? You don't use this kind of faith for anything else in life. You couldn't rely on faith to believe in Thor - you dismiss that god without blinking. But faith in Yahweh becomes a virtue for you. The god is different, but the same thing you think is ridiculous in one instance is seen as a good thing just a few sentences later.

If there is anything after death, why does a god have to be involved? It may be completely natural, it may be aliens uploading our souls into their computers, it could be lots of things. Nobody knows. You're saying you do know, and I think you're wrong to be so sure of yourself. It's late here, but I'll watch that video in the next day or two. Thanks.

93

Dating a JW and how to get her off the cult or becoming a member myself

by svennibenni in

i'm sorry if i'm totally wrong here but i have a serious problem.. i met a woman in the company i work in via intranet.

it is a very big company with offices all over the world.

she moved to the united kingdom just a few month before we met.

serotonin_wraith

I hope your instincts are right and she's the one for you. By their rules, she shouldn't have started anything with you. So if she's able to do that, she may be able to do more. I think, if she's open, people here can 'deconvert' her, directly or through you. I've managed to deconvert two people from that religion, but it really only works if someone is open to new ideas.

261

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

...in all fiction:jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevent bully.

", says richard dawkins in the god delusion p51.

he goes on to say, "those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror".. would you agree?.

serotonin_wraith

Sylvia,

Isn't your god above the 'two wrongs make a right' kind of thinking? I know plenty of us 'pathetic' humans are.

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith