Posts by done4good

91

one reason for the dumbing down of the org

by Magnum in

a lot of us have said that theres been a dumbing down in jw land.

its just not like it used to be especially a few decades ago.

it seems to me that if jw are right and the end of the world is near, the spiritual food should get tastier and more nourishing as time goes on, but it's getting more and more bland and less nourishing.

done4good

Old Goat - Oh, I think there are Witnesses with "brain power." They live in fear of using it. They compartmentalize. It's okay for them to use it when they teach or as a lawyer or engineer. It's not okay to develop a thological interest or to question the Watchtower's conclusions.

That comment is spot on. That was me, in my later years as a JW before leaving.

I had a similar conversation with a JW friend recently. I attempted to use the same reasonsing to help her understand cognitive dissonance. She experienced CD over the explanation of CD. And yes, she is an otherwise intelligent woman.

I believe this dumbing down is what will contribute to the organization's, (eventual), demise. What WT does not understand, is the dynamic that is playing out. It used to be, (at least through the 80's - early '90's), that JWs were encouraged to engage householders in discussion, and were able to do so quite well on many topics, however shortsighted they may have been in reality. There was passion, and a true belief that we were helping others understand things their religions were supposedly not teaching them. Not any more. JWs are no longer interested in the work. No passion, no desire...nothing to desire.

Secondly, the dumbing down will eventually cause those, like my friend above, to wake up. Intelligent people are generally successful. Successful people do not like being manipulated or controlled. The organization is replacing "richer", albeit false material, with control and manipulation. This is a recipe for long term disaster. It is a positive feedback loop that will not reverse itself. At some point, life happens. With no desire, no passion, and enough intelligence to know better, a big enough emotional tug in the other direction is all it takes to drive someone out. It happend to me, and a good number of us here the same way. The best and the brightest figure it out eventually.

d4g

87

How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

by Magnum in

how is the org really run?

what goes on behind the scenes?.

i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

done4good

Apognophos-Personally I don't think I've ever seen any hard evidence that JWs have a bigger problem with depression than non-believers, so while it's true that they are not "the perfectly happy people on earth", saying that they are the "happiest" people is a claim which is harder to knock down.

Now this I do not agree with. Of course, I have no hard emperical evidence to know that there is a greater degree of depression among JWs than the general population, but I do believe there is ample anecdotal evidence.

I have been fortunate enough in my life to have an education, and good career, that has allowed me to have a social network large enough to see a large enough sample size of the general population. I also spent most of my life, (including most of my adult life), as a JW. I have been on both sides of that depression scale myself. There really is no comparison. Not that depression does not exist among non-JWs, but it is not as severe, and does not affect the same percentage of that sample.

What can you really expect from a group whose overall lives are based on false expectations, (and all of the bad life decisions that come with that mindset)?

d4g

87

How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

by Magnum in

how is the org really run?

what goes on behind the scenes?.

i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

done4good

Apognophos-On the general subject of control techniques used by the WT, I think that a lot of them are pretty common sense, like the shunning practice. Heck, you can see even elementary school kids decide to punish a classmate they don't like by ignoring him. If we've ever met someone who was a people manipulator, did we wonder from where he got a degree in Manipulation? No, we just assumed he came by it naturally. Likewise, the cult control techniques encompassed by terms like "B.I.T.E." are largely obvious and do not take a rocket scientist to arrive at, just a controlling personality. The usefulness of those terms is in helping people recognize if they are being controlled, but I don't believe that the presence of these techniques implies that the one practicing them studied them in a book beforehand, or even knows he is using them.

Exactly. That is why I do not like the term "mind control". While it is not incorrect to state that mind controlling techniques are in use, (by either the org. or JWs themselves), it is incorrect to assume these techniques are being used deliberately with hurtful intent. Witnesses have been taught to be manipulative and passive aggressive by example, in most cases from birth. The current leadsership in the org. is no different. They were once R&F too, and spent decades in most cases being manipulated themselves. They know nothing else. Once again, they have not figured out some brilliant scheme of deception for personal gain, rather, they are just replicating what comes natural for them.

d4g

87

How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

by Magnum in

how is the org really run?

what goes on behind the scenes?.

i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

done4good

Good thread. For the 8 years I have been on this site, (with varying degrees of participation), I have seen probably 1000 threads asking things such as "how is the org run", "do the GB really believe", "is there someone else pulling the strings", etc. Answers are usually never found, (though many plausible explanations offered), only to be asked a different way on yet a different thread. This usually just leads to all types of theories, including those of the conspiracy type. Ususally when a things go as far as unprovable conspiracy theories, (of which stating some outside force controlling the GB is one of), we are way off the mark.

The real underlying question that needs to be asked is why they do what they do what they do? "Why" often gets to the root cause of what is going on generally in a more expiditous manner than asking "what" or even "how". This can be answered using a logical approach, but not neccessarily one that follows the normal hueristic of "common" sense.

To answer this, one needs to consider some counterintuitive concepts. In this case, the main concept is social evolution. Social evolution, (just as biological or any other evolution), has its roots in probabilties. In biological evolution, a gene mutates by stochastic, (random), events. Eventually with enough tries, a working mutation that produces a useful evolutionary genetic change takes place. Since this change is one that produced somthing useful for survival, it has advantages over mutations that do not produce a useful genetic change. Now take note, we really never see these "bad" genetic outcomes in the fossil record, do we? "Why" is what we should be asking ourselves, but we typically do not bother, because the answer, (to anyone familiar with biological evolution), is obvious. The fact is, since the mutatations produced "bad" genes not fit for survival, the organisms that were produced died off long before they could reproduce themselves.

The same principle applies to social memes just as it does biological genes. In this case, the social meme is the WT. The organization has survived about 140 years through years of social evolutionary change. In 1971, when the autocratic nature of the Presidency was threatening the organization's survival, (mostly due to the 1975 craziness), the board of directors began to flex their muscles and form a "theocratic", version of themselves, that today we know as the Governing Body. This was the first of such memetic mutations that took place with the board. Guess what, it worked. We know it did, because within 5 years, (1976), it gained enough power to take all power away from the Presidency. On the other hand, if it had failed, we probably would not even know about what took place in October of 1971.

In the years since, the organization has continued to evolve. It is much larger than it was in 1976, and we live in a much more complex and legalistic society. The organization has continued to exist due to random changes over the years, some of which have proven successful. It is not that some very intelligent people are running it, (and know it is all BS). Rather, the ones running it are mostly as delusional as most of the R&F, (just much worse because they have no other life outside of the organization), they just simply have made enough satisfactory decisons over the years since to keep it alive.

As a corollary to this, we do see the organization dying a slow death. In other words, the larger evolutionary changes neccessary for survival long term would really involve changes the organization is incapable of making.

There is nothing mystical or conspiratorial taking place. Just random decisions and happenings that have been "good enough" to keep it alive. Social evolution will run its course to completion in the end.

d4g

59

Books that changed your life-

by new hope and happiness in

i am not much of a reader as i have two many distractions, but i fancy a challenging read, so please list any book that has changed your entire world view on everything.

i remember as a teenager buying at a yard sale, norman vincent peales " the power of positive thinking" and at the time that had a big impact on me.

but i am a little bit more in to " realistic positive thinking" now..

done4good

CoC - Raymond Franz - No need to explain why.

The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins - I at least began to understand atheism from reading this back in 2006.

God and the Folly of Faith - Victor J. Stenger - Put any question of belief in the unprovable behind me.

Fabric of the Cosmos - Brian Greene - Best overall description of relativity and quantum mechanics I have read. (The string theory parts can be safely ignored since the discovery of the Higgs boson).

Thinking Fast and Slow - Daniel Kaheman - Still reading this, but the overall best insights into human psychology I have read.

Fooled by Randomness - Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Helped me to understand how counterintuitive probability plays a significant role in outcomes in the universe and our lives.

Einstien, (Bio) - Walter Issacson - Lost my balance, (literally), when I understood general relativity for the first time while reading.

d4g

56

How important do you believe education and knowledge is?

by new hope and happiness in

how educated are you?

and how great is your vocabularly ect ....?.

do you think ir right to judge people by how intelligent/ educated they are and how much vocabulary they use???.

done4good

The argument positioning "educated" vs. "just being a good person", (with good humor or whatever), is a false dilemma. There are good and not so good people with and without a good education.

Having said that, almost everything I learned that improved my life, (including as a human being towards others), had to do with education of some sort. Most educated people actually do develop a proper sense of ethics and morality. They are generally deeper thinkers, and at least try to make conscientious decisions. Education teaches a person critical thinking and rational thought. Nothing really of any lasting good comes from irrationality.

Given a choice, I would take an educated world anyday.

d4g

54

IS Science Absolute Truth

by seekchristonly in

if we have faith in science and scientific claims about the universe, origins of life etc.

is that absolute truth.

if so then if they declare that god exists with evidence then do all those who believe in science then believe in god or a creator.

done4good

I haven't read through this thread, but likely I am repeating was has already been said...

This question is based on a false premise. Therefore, it is invalid. Scientists do not claim "absolute truth". The very word "truth" is taboo in scientific circles, and likely to prevent any scientist from remaining in his/her career very long if they use it. Science is about formalized and rigorous inquiry. It is about creating a hypothesis, (a proposed explanation). A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, (able to be tested). Even when tested and proven, it does not constitute "truth", much less "absolute truth", whatever that means.

Understand what science is first, then rephrase your question.

d4g

194

Atheism is a Belief System

by seekchristonly in

is atheism a belief system.

after all the atheist believes there is no god .so if that's the case then an atheist if a person of faith.

they have faith in the fact there is no god.

done4good

Who told me that? I learned that in elementary school science, a thing called, "The law of conservation of energy", which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Or are you saying this scientific fact had new light like the WT and no longer applies?

Yes, the first law of thermodynamics. You forgot one important point, however. Scientific laws are only absolute within a given context. The context in this case, (as most laws pf physics are applied), applies within the confines of our universe. That means it does not include what existed before or outside of our universe.

Energy, (as we know it within our physical universe), had a beginning. We do not know what state of physical properties existed before our universe came into existence, or what energy, (if in fact it existed), could have been like.

d4g

19

New Here and happy to have found you

by flowerfreaks2 in

have been out officially for 5 1/2 years.

i was the only one out of all my 4 other siblings that stayed with it.

baptized at 16 and felt the need to carry on the heritage that my mom gave me to do.

done4good

Ho-leee sh@t!!!

Good for you!

the x

36

Were you 100% in?

by pontoon in

i was baptized in 1968. last meeting 2010. i have to say i was never 100% in.

there were times i absolutely believed, but i never really gave it my all.

never liked service, assemblies, meetings.

done4good

100% until July 12, 2005. Very quickly dropped to about 50% that day, and 0% by March 2006, (read CoC by then). Sure I had doubts before that, (everyone does), but they had no meaningful effect. The cognitive dissonance was too strong.