Posts by done4good

43

What are the things that wake people up from the Watchtower Corporation?

by punkofnice in

when i became an elder i saw the dark side.

a side i previously believed couldn't possibly exist in the one true religion of the happiest people on earth.. then they rolled out 'overlapping generations(tm)' and that was the last straw.. all my life i had doubts but surpressed them thinking i was at fault and not the cult leaders.. it seems more likely that now the governing body are parading around like popes, wearing their expensive jewellery, that this will nauseate even dyed in the wool jws.. i wonder if the wake up can be condensed into main categories?.

1. experiencing the cruel handling of matters by the wbt$ reps.. 2. crazy doctrine (eg.

done4good

Lots of things can wake someone up....too many to list. However, while I dislike to just cut and paste links, I think this one explains well while despite overwhelming evidence of falsehood, even intelligent people cannot easily break free from any religious belief.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2015/10/09/why-do-intelligent-well-educated-people-still-believe-nonsense/

The article mentions four key points:

1. Intelligence is compartmental.

2. The earlier someone is raised in the belief system, the more difficult it is to overcome.

3. Christian religions in particular drill into believer's heads to distrust themselves.

4. Psychological and social fears of questioning prevent one from facing their cognitive dissonance.

I would add that in the particular case of JWs, the degree to which all four points affect a person, are much greater than the mean, and in some cases a positive feedback loop is created, making it that much more difficult to break free. Those that do break free generally do so because the positive feedback loop in of itself tends to cause instability, which typically translates into some personal event that causes the awakening.

d4g

71

Doing the Right Thing, Making a Choice (shunning)

by Simon in

jw
friends

continuing a topic that is dear to my heart because of my experience as both a shunner and a shunnee .... some people seem to get very agitated when i talk about the responsibility people have to make the right choices and that despite all the wrongs within the wts, people themselves have a role to play and some personal responsibility for the experience.. notice i said "some" responsibility, not "complete" - this doesn't absolve the wts for the things they do wrong in any way shape or form.

so please don't get argumentative about possible meanings and absolutes - of course the wts has a significant role to play but we need to decide what we're trying to achieve here and why the personal choice is so important.. i'm also not talking about actual crimes that the wts should answer for.

if they cover up child abuse for instance, they absolutely should be reported immediately.

done4good

Simon, good post.

I think most people oversimplify the shunning issue. While it is true that the organization does sanction such behavior, it is only successful at doing so because the behavior itself is actually a natural response to someone experiencing cognitive dissonance, in this context.

No one chooses to shun someone simply because that other person chooses to think differently about a matter. For the most part, people are comfortable enough with what they "know", (even if it is incorrect), that they can handle disagreement, without it threatening their belief system.

A person choosing to shun, in contrast, is actually a very insecure person. Deep down they are not comfortable or confident in their belief system, hence do not allow it to be challenged. They will not debate, because they cannot, and they know it. The natural response someone in such a mental state will have is a shutdown response, that will not allow open discussion. This is where shunning begins.

In fact, even the presence of such a person presents the unpleasant effects of cognitive dissonance. This is because tacit information is communicated indirectly, such as that former believer being a "good" person, that is not becoming the monster that the believer was warned about just because that person changed their belief system. That is actually very powerful subconscious information that demonstrates the teachings of the belief system are likely wrong, even in this seemingly small way, and ultimately why shunning is applied even when discussion concerning one's belief system is not taking place.

The organization simply chooses to take that one step further and institutionalize the behavior. Unfortunately the behavior itself will likely not change for anyone committed that seriously to the belief system.

d4g

30

Who would you like to hear of leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses ?

by wozza in

jw
friends

i'll start off with this one:.

some years ago when i was formulating my exit, i employed for some time an ms brother from another congregation.. i'd had a couple of young "worldly" lads work for me but they proved unreliable as they used drugs or alchohol and consequently would'nt arrive at work and such like.. so when i was was contacted by this brother and spoke to him and heard he'd worked at the australian bethel for some time on construction and wanted an opportunity to learn the trade of bricklaying ,i thought ,"great someone to finally trust and be reliable".

he was in his 40's at the time and he worked like a trojan ,was honest ,really likeable and interesting ,could play the classical guitar beautifully ,had a beautiful family.

done4good

For the most part, I don't really care much anymore about who stays in, since I am all too aware that most are ill-equipped both mentally and emotionally to leave. I would even include my sister and my family in that group.

I have two beloved JW friends, (actually 3 if you count the unbaptized JW wife of one of them), that I would seriously give my right arm for them to leave, no exaggeration. It is the vain hope that either something going on in JW land might jar them loose, or the improbable chance that they will show up here that keeps me coming and posting here. They are good and bright people, and I painfully miss them every day. I also know they would reach their full potential before they became too old, if they would just see their way to leaving.

One decided almost two years ago she would speak with me no longer, (seriously broke my heart in the worst way possible), and the other two keep me at arm's length. I refuse to give up on them, even though I know it comes at great cost to my emotional well being.

Otherwise, I am long over trying with anyone else.

d4g

46

Just read this on JW Talk......

by WHATSGOINGON in

just saw this on the public area of jwtalk (i am not a member).

here is the link.. http://jwtalk.net/forums/topic/23523-privvy-news/.

such a shame - i do feel for these ones - i just don't know what to say.... wgo.

done4good

Vidiot - I've long suspected that the ones who express themselves the most (the way the posters in the linked thread have been) are the ones feeling that quiet desperation the most acutely. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a psychological mechanism used to shore up their confidence in the face of increasing evidence that undermines it.

Yes. It is how they resolve their cognitive dissonance.

d4g

362

No 'Tight Pants' policy is now official - classed as 'disturbing'

by wizzstick in

in short:- tight pants is no longer just a am3 hang up (or is that a hang up on the well hung?

)- brothers who have effeminate body language are flagged up- as are sisters with 'masculine' hair styles or dress- such dress is 'disturbing to the congregation'- the above must heed the (repeated) counsel from the elders...or they get stripped of the right to share on the ministry- however...this will not be revealed (announced) to the congregation.

wow.

done4good

The difference is a company does not judge a person's worthiness by their style of dress. The WTS does.

A person can leave a company if they find the dress code to be too constricting for their taste. This is a whole different matter. While certainly not as important as direct abuses, it is a type of ambient abuse in of itself, and very much a legitimate concern to be noted. No one is getting carried away by bringing up such points.

d4g

112

Did an EX-JW wake you up to TTATT or did you put the effort to wake up yourself?

by John Aquila in

how many of us were woken up by some apostate yelling false prophets at a convention?.

how many of us were woken up by someone holding a sign and yelling, what happened to 1975.

how many of us were coerced to investigate the wt because some ex-jw pulled up a bunch of old watchtowers magazines and told us to read the false predictions?.

done4good

I would argue that it is impossible to be woken up by someone else, however seeds can be planted that will produce fruit given the proper environment.

I had severe cognitive dissonance for many years before leaving, and did my best not to embrace it. Embracing it means facing the dissonance and trying to figure out why there are logical inconsistencies. This was a painful process, because deep down I recognized there was a severe price to be paid for discovering my beliefs could be wrong. This is why it often takes a personal traumatic situation for someone to wake up, as it did for me.

This article below I believe explains the reasons why even very intelligent people believe nonsensical things. The four keys points represented provide some insight as to why logic alone is not sufficient in most cases for someone to "wake up" and seriously question their belief system.

Why do intelligent and educated people still believe nonsense?

d4g

37

What’s the deal with all the Smart-Educated JWs?

by John Aquila in

we talk a lot about most jws being uneducated, uninformed, and that they lack critical thinking skills, but in my area there is a lot of jws that went to the university, medical school, law school, and came back to the organization.

in my circuit, that i know of, we had two electrical engineers, one computer engineer with a ph.d. eight teachers with a bachelors degree and three of those with a masters in education.

we had two medical doctors, one was a pediatrician who closed his business about 3 years ago and went to bethel.

done4good

Diogenesister - This is not a USA vs. Europe thing. A masters or PhD from any real university is an academically rigorous degree.

We are not just talking about converts that already had their degrees before becoming a JW. This affects born-ins and raised-ins as well, even more so. Many of these folks do go to university, (I did), and what happens is the programming is already well set in by that time, so it is easy to remain in, as one can treat the experience as "necessary business". Remember JWs that do go to university are going for career purposes, not to be enlightened in the general sense, so it is easier for them to have a rather disengaged viewpoint to the experience, even though they may perform well academically. Compartmentalization is the result, unless one is already having doubts.

University educated people have a greater degree of success in aggregate than non-university educated folks. Successful people have higher levels of self-esteem, and generally work to preserve that self-esteem. If something stands in the way of the ability to maintain a healthy level of self-esteem, (such as being wronged in a judicial committee, divorce, etc.), this will lead a successful person to often see things as they really are. Those experiences can happen several years into the future after one's education is completed.

d4g

37

What’s the deal with all the Smart-Educated JWs?

by John Aquila in

we talk a lot about most jws being uneducated, uninformed, and that they lack critical thinking skills, but in my area there is a lot of jws that went to the university, medical school, law school, and came back to the organization.

in my circuit, that i know of, we had two electrical engineers, one computer engineer with a ph.d. eight teachers with a bachelors degree and three of those with a masters in education.

we had two medical doctors, one was a pediatrician who closed his business about 3 years ago and went to bethel.

done4good

A university education does not mean someone will "leave" immediately, if ever. That is a myth. If that were the case I would have left 11-15 years before I did. Those that do leave because they are attending university are already questioning the organization.The GB are just plain paranoid about their constituents being better educated and smarter than they are, as any authoritarian group is.

IMHO JWs compartmentalize JW life vs. "normal" life. In their day to day normal life, they can use critical thinking skills, and become very balanced and successful people, until they are confronted with something that sets off the group think/cult programming. This causes cognitive dissonance as has been mentioned above.

Having said that, successful people do not make good robots, and very often times, with the passing of time and experience, probability dictates that something will happen to these ones that will force them to wake up. This is the real reason a college education is a problem for the WTS. College generally = success, and success = not taking bullshit.

d4g

35

Kick Back and Relax to Some Music

by Finkelstein in

that's right folks time to kick back , pour a cold one and in take in some tunes.. what are you listening to right now ?

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu87294pvx8.

done4good

Good thread. Will add later when not at work...Who, Radiohead, Dire Straits...all good.

d4g

15

Huckabee: The US Is More Evil Than The Rest Of The World

by ctrwtf in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/spnxx52oesa .

mike huckabee thinks that sin and evil, not guns, are the reason the us has so many mass shootings.. if this is true, then all things being equal, the us has more evil and sinful people than the rest of the world.

who's to blame for that?

done4good

Until people start using science and math to reason, (in this case using simple probability theory, not even its more advanced concepts), stupid comments such as Huckabee's, and one I saw yesterday on this forum that the "US has a problem with crazy people", (or something close to that), will continue to proliferate. Sadly, people will believe it.

Yes, I said stupid comments...not stupid people. I don't want to offend the poster that made the above comment I mention, but Huckabee's comment is just another variation thereof. That poster is not stupid.

d4g