Posts by Dogpatch

Want to meet an English ex-Witness?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

my name is debra, and im an english ex-jehovahs witness, .

i was baptised in the late 1980s, and married a brother a few months later, the following year we had a baby girl, a very much wanted baby girl too, but i suffered from post natel depression which got worse and worse, neither of us had any family around us to help and as you know we were discouraged from forming close friends with the world, my husband olso had a mental illness but that didnt stop him from pioneering and taking an active part in all the meetings, i began to get very spiritualy weak from missed meetings due to depression and a new baby, both my husband and myself spoke to the elders about this but we were ignored, it carried on until our child was 3 years old, in the meantime i had disassociated myself because the world offered more friends and i could be "me" not some puppet been told how im supposed to think, act, and feel, but i was still attending meetings and working towards eventual reinstatment, when our daughter was 3, due to a combination of hi!

s illness, a small child, a depressed wife and the ussuell pressure from been in the truth brings he finaly broke down and asked the doctor for help, as a result of that social services were called in and they took our daughter into what they said was temporary care, still the elders were not interested, they didnt even visit, they simply told my husband to co-operate with them, a few months later social services decided they wanted to have our daughter adopted and said they would take us to court to get there way, two elders then visited us one a childless elder the other the presiding overseerer a father of 5 and a grandfather, they were most concerned at how this would look and forbade us to discuss the situation with anyone in or out of the truth, they didnt even like the fact we had to discuss it with our lawyer/solicitor and suggested that we dont, they wanted it to cause as little fuss as possible, we begged social services to place our child now olmost 4 with witnesses!

Dogpatch

Hello,
my name is Debra, and im an english ex-jehovahs witness,
I was baptised in the late 1980s, and married a brother a few months later, the following year we had a baby girl, a very much wanted baby girl too, but i suffered from post natel depression which got worse and worse, neither of us had any family around us to help and as you know we were discouraged from forming close friends with the world, my husband olso had a mental illness but that didnt stop him from pioneering and taking an active part in all the meetings, i began to get very spiritualy weak from missed meetings due to depression and a new baby, both my husband and myself spoke to the elders about this but we were ignored, it carried on until our child was 3 years old, in the meantime i had disassociated myself because the world offered more friends and i could be "me" not some puppet been told how im supposed to think, act, and feel, but i was still attending meetings and working towards eventual reinstatment, when our daughter was 3, due to a combination of hi! s illness, a small child, a depressed wife and the ussuell pressure from been in the truth brings he finaly broke down and asked the doctor for help, as a result of that social services were called in and they took our daughter into what they said was temporary care, still the elders were not interested, they didnt even visit, they simply told my husband to co-operate with them, a few months later social services decided they wanted to have our daughter adopted and said they would take us to court to get there way, two elders then visited us one a childless elder the other the presiding overseerer a father of 5 and a grandfather, they were most concerned at how this would look and forbade us to discuss the situation with anyone in or out of the truth, they didnt even like the fact we had to discuss it with our lawyer/solicitor and suggested that we dont, they wanted it to cause as little fuss as possible, we begged social services to place our child now olmost 4 with witnesses! s, and with our solicitors agreement we advertised for a witness family to come forward ourselfs, social services didnt mind our doing this, but the elders DID mind, the same two came round to our house and forbade us from doing this, they hated it, i can only assume it was coloring there whiter than white image a bit, they didnt like it, they accually said that it didnt matter how she was bought up, anyway needless to say we lost in the end and our child was adopted by persons unknown in the world, i dont think either of us attended any more meetings after that, my husband was hospitalised quite alot after that and died that year, i went to the funeral with two non witness friends of mine who were absolutly appalled by the way i was totaly ignored by the rest of the congregation, and one of them accually said within hearing of the elder conducting the service that if this is what the witnessess were like shed never talk to them ever again, Anyway ive sinced r! emarried and we have a little son, fortuntly he dislikes the witnessess as much as i do, we wont even let them ring our doorbell now.

i would like to write to other EX witnesses and hear there experiences

from Debra

_______________
if you want her email, send me a note at [email protected]

49

30 and Out?

by Black Man in

jw
friends

30 that seems to put jw's at a cross-roads?

i've known so many who have decided to abandon ship at either the age of 30 or either after 30 years of being baptized.

i fall into the former category.

Dogpatch

That's cool. I got out of the Borg at 28. But sometimes all the old Victorian religious stuff remains. As a result, I remained a virgin til' 39. She, fortunately, was not. :-))

12

An elder struggles

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

this is on my site as listed at the end:.

between love and me its late night.

i have just been to another elder meeting, as we used to do.

Dogpatch

Thanks Bernard!
I know how you feel. I was quite happy at Bethel, except for the last year when the GB was sticking their nose into everyone's business at Bethel. I had to get away from such childish old men! Gags you in the end.

Sometimes I think the greatest harm to me came from NEEDING to have the answers, mostly for my insecurity. It took me YEARS (even after the JWS) to get to the point where I realized that the greatest enemy to my mental well-being was NEEDING TO KNOW THE ANSWERS. I no longer need even most of the answers. I need to be whole myself. Learn to be your own judge, otherwise you by proxy accept the judgment of others. Learn to feel good about yourself, lighten up, go shopping, do yer hair, find a lover. What ever it takes, learn to feel like you want to feel about life.

My curiosity is never satiated when I am open to answers. Nowadays In watch Discover and nature channels more than anything, always learning. But its NOW A HOBBY, not a religion. :-))
Randy

12

An elder struggles

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

this is on my site as listed at the end:.

between love and me its late night.

i have just been to another elder meeting, as we used to do.

Dogpatch

This is on my site as listed at the end:

Between love and “me” It’s late night. I have just been to another elder meeting, as we used to do. The children and my wife were sleeping when I got home. Sitting here in front of the computer with the table covered with a lot of paper, but also my loving Bible. The thoughts are deep and long. I have just kissed my daughter goodnight at the edge of her bed and had a prayer to Jehovah with her. Maybe she didn’t listen because of her sleep, but as usual she, still sleeping, kissed me goodnight. I went to my wife and my children, saying that all my brothers and sisters are in deep trouble because they are confused over changes made to what they believe was an unchangeable truth.
Now I am over 40 and it is time to look back. Life has, in general, been good. The prime look back just as “old mister blue eye” said “My regrets are few, but then again too few to mention.” But again we all have the survival instinct - maybe that’s what is going on.
I was raised as a JW and with parents strong enough to think for themselves, I was able to get an university education. My father was an elder and that maybe protected me - injustice or not, but lucky for me. I tried to combine it with at great deal of work in the congregation and on the witness work once or twice a year as a temporary pioneer. I did my best, so the blame was neutralised. Close to 20 year later, I look back now, being an elder for the last 13 years. I now have enough experience to look at both the past and the goings on right now in the WT.

I’ve been around this board for a few month to see what it is. Some good people seem to have a good mind, but too many ex JWs are filled with too much anger, and sometimes hate. It totally destroys the ability to think clear and with a free mind. Too much looking back and too little will to take life as the response of our selves. But maybe a lot of broken hearts are left by the Wt's hand, which I regret very much._________________

That’s what really gives great concern to me. Who has build this system of rules and “big eye watch”? Is it the WT/GB or is it just a human mechanism? Maybe we as humans add something that we thought was right to do but in fact was totally wrong. Who is to blame – the system or we the followers? The answer is “blowing in the wind.”
Many out there on this board have quit JWs and with a lot of bitterness. I do understand the feeling behind this – but have these persons been able to get at better life or do they have better balance? Or maybe more important, do they feel more in contact with Jehovah and Jesus? I don’t know but the anger also tells a story.
I’m inside and play an active role as a JW and elder. Speaking in front of 75 people or several thousand is not always an easy job, trying to find a balance between what the Society expects you to tell and what you are as a person and what your conscience has allowed. I haven’t found the answer to this. I must meanwhile find this balance or at least a better balance that I’m able to live with if I shall see my self in the mirror in the morning without destroying the mirror! Meanwhile it also fills me with pleasure to tell about the love of Jehovah and Jesus and the word of the Bible to us as human being trying to live at good life with care and love to each other. It’s not my job to tell other specifics and by rules of how this must be done by the individual. Each person must find its own way of the will of God to each person. Meanwhile Jehovah has also demands and with his spirit he is able to give power to do so to each man and women. My job as elder and speaker is to convince the brothers and sisters that they do count, and we all have the same values to God and try to point out the good outcome of doing the will of God. I’m not the judge to say that they succeed in this or not. Only Jesus is the one to do that.
I do know the battle between this way and other opinions of people that in my mind have left. there That’s why younger elders are the hope.
But my experience tells me that the opportunities of this are very different from country to another and even inside a country. I’m lucky to life at place where there is greater understanding of that. We all are different and that this is a strength, but anyway the understanding of this is under debate with very different opinions.
My hope are as told to the younger ones. We have a growing part of both sex now better educated than before, and a stronger will to think clear. They are questioning all authority and demand answers that are well-founded on the Bible as the word of God. They don’t just obey because the WT or us as elders say so. If we as an elder tell that the WT say so and so they don’t care as much at they did before. They don’t debate provoking but they just select what they by themselves accept. Of course this can lead to wishes of the flesh but the positive elements are bigger and more important. It’s our job to make the positive elements attractive.
In the congregations we are facing problems. Many are leaving or just stopping little by little. Of course we have the ordinary cases with moral matters, but more and more are leaving just because they just aren't able to handle all the demands anymore or they disagree with GB/WT. People are not trusting the explanation of the pprophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. They sometimes just smile, to these sometimes it seems lie a stupid explanation. More and more I agree inside.

About the old ones of the sisters and brothers: They are just confused about the missing Armageddon and the “missing 1914-generation” or they have stopped thinking and just move on as they used to do and as they were told to do. But a lot have an empty look in their eyes – only a cold heart don’t feel sorrow from this, but many are unable to see it or they have built a up something inside them self-blinding them!
Bach again to the late night thought. I’m not sentimental and are even not a social man with a demand of contact. I feel the most balance and contact to Jehovah climbing in the Alps. Climbing all alone in total silence at night, and to be close to the summit when the sun is raising from the east and you see all the nature that Jehovah has given us fills me with new power.
It easy just to think about your own person but others – your family that you love, and they love me too, and all the brothers an sisters depending of care and love bind you to your destiny so you can’t just leave.
I went back to the rooms of my son and daughter just to have a look before my own sleep. They look happy sleeping, and my wife, too. I must be a happy man and tell myself to be so. Just for sure I repeat that to my self once more.

It’s a hard way finding you self but every one must find it’s own way – but it’s not easy when years are coming and going.
Between love and “me” II – Elder dilemma
From my first post I have received a lot of response. I thanks for all this mainly because they in general showed a lot of people with good human qualities – also thanks for the e-mail I will try to answer them as good as possible. It’s good to know that human qualities still exist. There have been some remarks that forced me to explain my opinion a little more in detail.
The headline expresses the conflict I and several elders are going though. I have been an elder since I was a young man of about 30. Now I’m passing 40 with a couple of years. Hear living in Europe my life is passing on, giving me some experience. Even I do know I still have a lot to learn. I love my family and my brothers and sisters, but because of the “system,” I feel caught in a spin that makes me sometime test my conscience to the breaking point. It’s not an easy task to be an elder in conflict between your personal conviction and all the press and demands from the societies of WT. Maybe if you are an elder doing a little laying back this could be easier but when you are in front of the line it’s more complicated. This means that you have to speak in public in the congregation, but also sometime in front of several thousand people with a disagreement where the content is in disharmony with your personal beliefs. Then the thoughts are: Maybe you are wrong thinking and they are right. But sometimes you conclude that your own feelings are right, and who knows to who Jehovah gives his spirit! The good thing about speaking in public is that you still have the opportunities to give the text a turn in a direction where you are able to live with it. It’s by then very important to stay on the right side of the limit and don’t provoke to much and always stay to the Bible. Then you maybe are able to protect yourself.
For me the matter is to believe in what a Christian is by the way Jesus told us to be. He is the picture of Jehovah and the way he lived his human life and the way he looked at other people and his disciples is an ideal for us. He was caring and patience with all and handled every one with personal understanding and a forgiving attitude. He still said “do no more sin”, but he was not the one to blame the weak sinner, but to give power to change the past of bad thing to better with respect to each person. He was looking after the good things and encouraged the sinner to change to the better.
We have build a system where this things still are the ones to follow, but the reality is in practice different. We have build up a lot of rules to protect the unity. This rules has become so important that protect them is the main thing to do and many people are left behind destroyed and with broken hearts. It’s very hard to see you self unable to do much about it in total – only in the surrounding, your are a part of and when you have power, time and opportunities, you can do a little. Very often as an elder we try to cure the patient, but the better way was to cut away the causal relation. But that’s not the case or the opportunities. We as elders very often just try to stop the “bleating” and hope their patience will survive, but that’s the only thing we can do. It’s hard to live with.
Still there are a lot to do and a lot to consider that bind you as a destiny . I love my family – wife and 2 children and they do love me to. All have been a part of the JWs since birth as myself. A lot of brothers and sisters are also with different needs and problems. Many are weak and demand a lot of care and understanding. Some have a lot of problems – sometime because of the system – that has to be taken care of. It fills me with sorrow mainly to see the older ones still very faithful but confused over the time still going on with no paradise. Of course the Bible never said “we would know the time”, but we anyway have been told that this was to happen very soon in our time and at least before the “1914 generation” was gone. Now this anchor has gone. What’s now to believe?. My job is to tell them what to belief. What shall I tell them!!!! For me it’s not the main point, because I never have put my faith into sometimes fantasy explanations about 607, 1914, 1975, 1914-generation etc because I think we only have to live our life according to Jesus' word about staying awake because the day will come as a thief in the night. But for many JWs, their faith is close connected to these explanations.
I see all the conflict and broken hearts but still also a lot of love between people in the congregations. The main part are trying to live the best they can and don’t think too much. The living thought in the mind has bad conditions. The search of man after meaning of life has in acknowledge of that this live for the main part only has a little to offer been forced to build the reality with self-believed fantasies. Only by doing that, life has gotten a deeper meaning. If that’s impossible for the man the only way to survive is to live without the thought.
For many people inside the JWs, the daily life fills everything. The heavy burden of daily and weekly life as a JW for many is so big an effort that most just give up to what become their destiny. They become a little wheel in a big machine where all the wheels just going on without thought and the purpose for the individual become dark and almost non-existence. To think about tomorrow becomes too heavy a burden. It fills me with sorrow to see so many destinies like this. Only a few has the power and strange to stop up and think by themselves. What a pity. The answer for WHY is “blowing in the wind." Not that there is no answer, but very difference answers depending on situations and beliefs and those given them.
Being an elder today and trying to be a part of solving this situation is like trying to climb an ice wall without the necessary equipment. Very frustrating and discontent. Also telling them of JW's explanation of prophecies from Daniel and Revelation is a hard job to do when you very much doubt the explanation and even think the explanation is no good. Sometimes it only brings fear, and in my opinion is a wrong and bad expression of Jehovah and Jesus our Lord. The fear becomes too much a purpose to maintain power and man's control. Maybe not by bad will, but just the way things has gone when years comes and go. The situation becomes more and more frozen and problems keep growing and growing.

But still it’s very impressive what has been build up by the JWs during the last 100 years or so. What has build this? We all agree when we look at the universe that this has to be build by someone. Maybe not a fair comparison but anyway the doubt is still there.
In Mat. 9:16 it’s written: “On seeing the crowds he (Jesus) felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown like sheep without a shepherd.” I fell the same for many, but unfortunately I’m not Jesus. I’m just one more elder with only little power to do something about it. But still “the little” is better than nothing so I just can leave them. But “me” is suffering. That’s the conflict between “love and me.”
As told, only doing the high mountain climbing gives me satisfaction. Climbing at night all alone under the light of the moon and being on a 4-5.000 m summit in the Schweiz or France Alps in the morning and see the sun raise from the east is like seeing Jehovah, and fills me with gratitude being living - and also feel like this - even death is the follower of the climber. More and more sitting in the congregation I only as the lonely wolf wish to be out in the mountains trying to find peace in mind and feel like a living person in close contact with Jehovah.

I not bitter on my own, but feel sorrow for everyone left on the road with broken hearts and sometimes destroyed lives. I even do understand that anger and sometime hate is a natural reaction of all the hurting, but I still don’t think it’s a good way to become a whole person again. But I know that’s easy to say and sometimes nearly impossible to do in practice.
What a pity for us all.

This could be the last sentence but let's try to look at it another way. Life isn’t that bad. As Romans 12:21 says:
“Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
This means that life always will find a way to survive. Love is the strongest power and the only way to conquer the bad and evil. To lay back in anger and hate will only destroy us all. We have to look forward and trust our Lord Jehovah and Jesus. They will never let us down and forget us if we, despite all bad experience, still believe and trust – not on man but God. Maybe not easy but the opposite is worse.
Let’s give life a change. Leave the dark room and the computer. Go out to take a real look at people and your family. There’s at lot of good thing there – just have a look. Go and let the book of Nature and the Bible show you the kind of God. Trust your self and your believes and the free mind and thought. Give you self the change to see smile and joy.
It’s just another late night. I'm just having a last look at the children sleeping. I went to the room of my son – he’s close to being a teenager now. He seems to be happy sleeping. I know he trusts me in total (He still think his father is the strongest man in the world). In time he will recognize that we are all small and weak, but despite that future acknowledgement I thing he still will love me as I love him.
Let us not just focus on our self and all the bad and dark thoughts - they will just eat us up from inside - instead let's give life a chance.
Beroea (anonymous)

http://www.freeminds.org/stories/loveandme.htm

Randy Watters

3

ELECTRIC WAR STRATEGY

by Kent in

jw
friends

the last time there was a "war" online, the watchtower tried to close down the watchtower observer, and they threatened me by suing me, the lot.

gary busselman wrote this little story, and i guess a refreshment of what he said could be interesting: .

imho, kent's no dummy.

Dogpatch

Gary Busselman is a gem of a thinker. His site is at:
http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm

One of his gems:

The Truth (as I seen it)
According to Jehovah's Witnesses
by Gary Busselman
GOD is the creator, but since he only created Michael,
and Michael created everything else, ("all other things")
that would seem to make Michael the real creator,
but only in a sense, since Michael is Jesus and Michael said to Satan,
"the Lord rebuke you" makes the Lord powerful over Satan,
however when Michael had to throw Satan out of heaven in 1914
he had to do battle with his own creations, Satan and His Angels,
and in 1918 when he selected Joe Rutherford to be his earthly channel
and had to put the truth in the mind of Joe
so Joe could write the truth in the Watch Tower
and build Beth Sarim.

All this would be hard to understand if it were not for the "salvation" doctrine,
which is easy to understand since the living evildoers
will all be made dead at Armageddon
and the dead evildoers will be made alive at Armageddon,
thus the living sinners will die and the dead sinners will live,
except the dead who are made alive will not really be made alive again
but when they die God kinda makes a sort of computer chip, in a sense,
of all the information in their brains,
like their memories, thoughts, and personality
and keeps this stored in heaven
and the Angels that don't join up with Satan help
and then after Armageddon, God makes a perfect replica body,
and somehow inserts this memory chip in the perfect replica body
and then he will judge that new creation of the old person
who was dead but is now alive, sort of,
by how he treats the anointed who are mostly dead
but are represented by the Governing Body, who are not inspired
but only receive Divine direction,
and by how well he follows the directions of the Organization
and if he sins he dies.

To survive Armageddon, the only way is to be serving God
in the only Organization that has the truth, Jehovah's Witnesses.
The truth is defined as the current teachings of the Governing Body
which largely consist of denying their own past teachings
and condemning views that are held by other groups
that the Governing Body will someday adopt as their "new light"
and "the truth". Serving God is defined as attending the five weekly meetings
of Jehovah's Witnesses, reading all of the weeks lessons before the meetings,
including underlining the answer to the questions at the bottom of the pages
in the paragraphs with a red marker, (yellow highlighter is optional
as long as it is used in moderation) answering any questions you may come up
with by yourself, while you keep those questions secret and to yourself,
by looking up the proper subject headings in the Index published by the Society
and referencing to the proper Watchtower article
while attending meetings for field service
and going out in cars to try to recruit new members into the group
and to solicit contributions to be turned into the group leaders
in exchange for Watchtower publications that members paid for
at the Kingdom Hall using the voluntary donation arrangement
that was adopted after the Society failed in their attempt to defend Jimmy Swaggert
in the Supreme Court of California
after the Superior Authorities fell out of love with him
and charged him with avoiding sales tax on literature sales
and all Witnesses must do this or they die.

Loyalty to "Jehovah's Organization" is important
since surviving Armageddon is contingent on how well
we vindicate Jehovah's name which is really YHWH
and pronounced Yahweh by most Biblical scholars
only since that was changed to sanctify
and it now is to exalt Jehovah's Name, not to vindicate anymore,
and to announce the kingdom that was set up in heaven in 1914 after Jesus
returned invisibly in 1874
and again in 1914 for the separating of the sheep and the goats
by selling Watchtower publications door to door
and then in 1995 this was changed to
not separating the sheep from the goats
but to require all Jehovah's Witnesses to believe
that the separating of the sheep and the goats will be a future event
to begin after the start of the Great Tribulation
except that Jesus had to actually start his judging of the sheep and the goats in 33 AD
and that he only picked 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
and the number was filled in 1935
and then the earth was going to be used for the testing ground
for all the re-created dead sinners and Jehovah's Witnesses for 1000 years
because this all ties into the date of 1914
which was arrived at by Nelson Barbour by adding 30 years to William Miller's
failed Apocalypse expectation date of 1844 which was arrived at by adding a
year to the previously failed date of 1843, to arrive at 1874, which when
the end didn't come, he added 40 more years to come up with 1914 which
Charles Taze Russell adopted and changed to 1915 when the Apocalypse didn't
come in 1914 then to 1918 when it didn't come in 1915, then he died.

This is all so simple that a child could understand
especially in view of the fact that the seven trumpets of Revelation
were the seven Jehovah's Witness District assemblies from 1922 to 1928,
starting with Cedar Point, Ohio and ending with Detroit, Michigan,
only they weren't called Jehovah's Witnesses then
but since Jehovah picked them in 1918 he waited until 1931
to give them his name while the generation living in 1914
and of the age of understanding, about 12 or 15, when World War One broke out,
except it had been breaking out for a number of years before 1914,
meaning that the generation that saw 1914 would by no means pass away
before Armageddon started and "by no means"
indicates that the majority would be living and never die
since Jesus told Joe Rutherford that "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"
by an angel and Joe wrote a book about the dead Princes,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and others would be resurrected to the earth in 1925
and live in a house he built for them in 1929 in San Diego, California
except he lived in it himself
because he thought the start of World War Two would be the beginning of Armageddon
and then he died.

Usually this is best understood by believing the truth as Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz
wrote about it in the Watchtower since they knew that service was the answer
and that six thousand years since Adam and Eve ended in 1975
and that maybe, might, could, should be the start of Armageddon
but they don't remember writing anything about 1975
and they couldn't say for sure when Eve was created
and besides so many were going to prison because they were loyal to God
by refusing alternative service to active military duty
and no one was taking organ transplants or buying Girl Scout Cookies
and then they died.

Sometimes the truth comes as flashes of light and the vaccinations,
and organ transplants are now all okay and the drafted boys don't go to prison
but stay at home to be elders and pioneers instead of going to jail
and the sheep are waiting and the goats are waiting too
and the generation of 1914 waited too,
then they died.

WT and disabled kids?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

does anyone have any experience with the wt's advice to those who have disabled (blind, etc.

) kids on whether they should pursue higher education?

i received this email:.

Dogpatch

Does anyone have any experience with the WT's advice to those who have disabled (blind, etc.) kids on whether they should pursue higher education? I received this email:

Hi I am a man who has been blind since birth and I was raised a Jehovah's witness. However, I was never baptized because I studied off and on because I had nonwitness relatives who led me away for a while. I progressed very slowly through the books and when I graduated high school I was discouraged from pursuing any career or education by the elders. I was told by several people that I could just do secretarial work. I went on and am now a strait a student at a university. I want to know what the watchtower organizations policies are toward the blind as far as what the elders are told to tell parents of disabled youth and disabled adults when making career and life decisions. I want to know what the organization does not tell the public. I would appreciate your help thanks.

Let me know and I will post it to him.
Randy Watters
[email protected]

http://www.exjws.net

1

Are you like an onion?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

gary busselman recently essayed the following.

he was raised in the jws and he did not have a "personality" to return to.

might find it interesting?.

Dogpatch

Gary Busselman recently essayed the following. He was raised in the JWs and he did not have a "personality" to return to. Might find it interesting?
http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm

Establishing and maintaining the Pseudopersonality
by Gary Busselman (April 18, 2001)
I am impressed by the perception and clarity and detail revealed by writers who write about the effects high control groups can have on certain members. The approach almost always appears to be an objective detached account of the effects and aftereffects of high control group involvement.

The favorite analysis of the high control group member by these writers seems to be a microscopic view of a model that lived a healthy life in middle class Western culture, had no overwhelming life events to run from, is educated beyond the norm, was deceived somehow into joining the high control group, was re-educated with group ideals, then adopted the look as well as the thought pattern of the group leader(s). When they leave their groups they have this struggle returning to the life they once had. A struggle that, in my opinion, occurs mostly in the mind of the writer.

A popular book, Cults in our Midst, By Margaret Thaler Singer (with Janja Lalich), Chapter 12, p. 302: Recovery; Coming out of the Pseudopersonality, contains these two sentences:

". . . I will explore . . . a kind of peeling off of the outer layer of identity that was taken on while in the cult. The process is a matter of recovering one's self and one's value system, and of keeping whatever good was learned during cult days while discarding all the not-so-good."

While this onion peel approach is interesting and I'm sure it applies to some individuals, maybe many individuals, it avoids the masses who were indoctrinated into these groups as children or as adolescents who had no other personality, no other training, and no other world views. The constant repetition of the group's world view became the core beliefs of the individual. Not an "outer layer". Not a pseudo-personality. The groups beliefs and practices made up the core of the predominant operating force of the young member. The human body became the person and beliefs plus experiences became the personality.

To approach the ejected high control group member like they have a disease like a rash that will go away if treated with enough reality or if treated with the doctrines of a counter believing high control group is adding insult to injury. All ejected high control group members are true believers to varying degrees. They are respectable and deserve respect. To approach the ejected true believer as having a veneer personality that when stripped away will reveal this underlying pliable, supple personality, waiting for the counselor or the pastor to mold would be wrong in many cases. For people raised in groups as children, the pseudopersonality is actually formed after leaving the group. The underlying core beliefs implanted so long ago by the group are still there. That is why so many are compelled to return after being away from the group many years. That is why so many former members have problems with religious rituals like Christmas and political opportunities like voting in public elections.

I was raised in a high control group by true believing parents and I was surrounded by true believing relatives and by true believing friends and we all attended 5 or more meetings a week as well as proselytized on the group leader's behalf almost to the exclusion of everything else. For a time, the group was my life. My thoughts were group influenced. My behavior was group influenced. I had no other personality, I had nothing to "recover."

Now I leave the group and some well meaning, never been there, counselor tries to remove my group designed personality? Or some counter believing group's apologist tries to "replace" my errant ideas with her own? If you think I might have a tendency to resist that approach, you're right.

At best, I can only be a product of my education, my experience, plus my perception. For me, there seems to be no coming out of any pseudopersonality. There is a diffusing process, a reconciliation process, an accepting process. I will find some way to come to terms with my perception of my experiences. I will find a modified belief system to live my life by. I will continue to try things and reflect on success as well as error.

First of all, my experience was not all bad. It was like a train trip. A little rough at times. A little boring at times. The seat got a little hard. The sleeping was not always easy but we hade some enjoyable stops. We saw some very pretty and interesting things. We met some nice people. Some of us met out mates there and produced children there. Some of us lost important people along the way.

One of the costs of leaving the train is leaving behind the pleasant as well as the unpleasant aspects of the trip. There were circumstances within or beyond our control that got us on the train. I could have stayed but I chose to go. There was a cost involved in getting off. I thought I could avoid part of that cost but I couldn't.

The education and experience and reflection since leaving the group has established a somewhat different personal operating system, like a new version of Windows, a super-pseudo-personality and in many ways, living has been establishing and maintaining the pseudopersonality.

Gary Busselman

http://www.freeminds.org
Net Soup!

21

Were you afraid that the JW's were right?

by jurs in

jw
friends

many posters have said that initially they had doubts and then cane to the internet to check things out.

were any of you afraid that maybe you would find that the org was the truth ?.

i was worried about that.

Dogpatch

I became convinced during my private studies in the Bethel library during 1979 that they could not be a prophet of God, simply by looking through all the Watchtowers from 1879 to 1979 and specifically several issues, such as:
How the anointed knows they're anointed
the truth about 1914
faithful & discreet slave

and I knew when I left Bethel they were just another religion. It took reading Romans and Galatians in a different mindset (one of grace) that convinced me beyond anything else they did not have the truth of the Bible. They actually became the ones who were the modern-day equivalent of the Pharisees, and I had been one of them. Here's my story:

Testimony of Randall Watters

(served at Watchtower headquarters from 1974 to 1980)

Having been a pioneer for two years and anxious to live at the hub of "God's organization," Bethel seemed like a wonderful place to be. From the start, I learned to run a press, printing the New World Translation, the Aid book, and many other publications. By 1977 I had been appointed a floor overseer and a Bethel elder. I was in charge of the presses that printed their Bibles, and help start an offset printing training school. Later projects involved helping to renovate the entire printing operation. Traveling regularly around New England as a speaker, I made many fine friends and enjoyed my work. I was convinced this was truly "God's organization," and was even zealous to report those who were entertaining thoughts contrary to those of the "faithful slave." I was well-known as an "organization man."

The big change in my perspective came in early 1979. On a business trip to Massachusetts with three other factory overseers, we were discussing the importance of faith for salvation and how the organization makes one's works the big issue (rather than true faith) through the counting of time (going door-to-door), keeping personal activity records, etc. From this time I began a study that intrigued me more and more, as I studied Paul's letters to the Romans and Galatians. At Bethel, I attended a Monday night Bible study after the family "Watchtower study." We used different translations of the Bible and went through the New Testament chapter by chapter. It was becoming noticeable to those within our group that there was a significant difference between studying what the Watchtower said about the Bible and actually studying the Bible.

Word leaked out that the Governing Body had discussed the validity of the 1914 date; or, rather, the issue was brought up for discussion but was quickly dropped. Also, the matter of the importance of developing one's conscience rather than living by a code of rules had been repeatedly brought up, and it seemed that a measure of freedom would be tolerated within the organization. Articles had been published that appeared to give the Witnesses more freedom in their consciences as to matters of employment and their private lives.

Take as an example the Oct. 1, 1972 Watchtower article on "Your Conscience and Your Employment." It was clarified that a person who worked on a tobacco plantation could choose to remain there or quit his job; it was up to his conscience. Then not a few months would pass by, and elders would complain to the Governing Body that the flock was taking too many liberties, and rules had to be laid down. Thus, the Kingdom Ministry of September 1976 stated on page 3 that a Witness most certainly "could not engage in the manufacture, sale or promotion" of cigarettes. Milton Henschel, a member of the Governing Body, once said over another matter of conscience, "If we let the brothers do this, there is no telling how far they will go." While in direct conflict with Paul's words at Romans 7:6 and Galatians 2:16-21; 3:10, the Governing Body deemed it necessary to lay down rules to "keep the brothers in line." Over and over I would hear it echoed among those in positions of responsibility at Bethel, "You just can't trust the brothers to themselves." In other words, the average JW's love for Jehovah was seemingly not able to keep him out of trouble, he needed to have rules, curfews and restrictions to govern all aspects of his life. Yet, my experience as an overseer told me otherwise. When you trust people, they feel comfortable and work all the more to get the job done. Unfortunately, this was not the pervading atmosphere at Bethel.

Up until the latter part of 1979, personal opinions could be discussed among close friends, and it was well known among the more "seasoned" Bethelites that most of the members of the Governing Body and the Writing Department had differences of opinion as to matters of doctrine. For example, Colin Quackenbush, former editor of the Awake! magazine, believed that all of the "144,000" (the heavenly class) must have been chosen by the end of the first century, for history testifies that there were millions of Christians even in the early years of the church, many of these having been martyred for their faith. Fred Franz, the fourth president of the organization, at times expressed beliefs that he had to qualify as his opinion, and not the general consensus of the other GB members. Yet, by the end of 1979, none would dare to admit such differences. Those who did were disfellowshipped.

During the time that the Sanchezes were disfellowshipped and Ray Franz was put on trial, I would hear through the grapevine who was going to "get the axe" next. The junior members of the Governing Body took turns at defaming the characters of these "apostates" in order to prove their loyalty to the older members of the Governing Body. A popular Bible commentary (Barnes' Notes On the New Testament) was banned from the libraries for a time, as some Bethelites who had used it in their studies had seen through the shallow scholarship of the JW publications and criticized them. Revealing their insecurity over their own doctrinal foundation, the Aug.15,1981 Watchtower (p. 28, 29) stabbed at those who wanted to study the Bible without The Watchtower: "They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago."

The crux of the matter is this: The JW is not allowed to interpret the Bible, but must rely on the ever-changing interpretations of 14 men in New York, none of whom are Greek or Hebrew scholars, and have no business translating a Bible, let alone controlling the lives of millions of people.

Christianity is meant to be an experiential faith. You come to Christ as your mediator, ask forgiveness for your sins, and you receive the "new birth" (John 3:3-7). Christianity is God working through man, not man working for God.

also the synopsis of grace vs. works at:
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/rules.htm

Randy

16

Misquotes

by troubled in

jw
friends

has anyone ever written to the society,with evidence of misquotes, and asked them for an explanation of this?

or has anyone ever written and asked them why they quote and don't give the source of the quote?

if i did this, do you think i would get into trouble in the congregation, etc.?

Dogpatch

What a pile of crap YK. You are so paranoid of people letting go of your Twit-God-Jehovah you have to discourage them from questioning!
I would love to dress you up and take you in a parade some day.
Cultinstein!
Keep them in darkness and feed them bullshit, that is the only game controlling men with corporate ego problems can play. They are all around you, in work, business ,etc. The Borg is no different, and you are its toy.

20

news from the d.c.

by zev in

jw
friends

i have nothing to share that already hasn't been posted by other good people who take notes.

i slept as much as possible.

one thing that i can say.... if i hear any of these expressions over the next week, i'll hurl on whoever says them.. gods earthly organization {substitute jehovah for god for any of these}.

Dogpatch

District Assembly #3
http://www.freeminds.org/buss/okies_3.htm#assembly1

Dear Randy,

Six flat tires, and we's only been on the road two weeks. We only been in Kentucky 3 days and the oil barrel sprung a leak the first night, yesterday the dogs got to fighting and knocked Granny off the seat back, where she's taken a liking to sit, and now that stupid sister Neew started to cry again. The dumb bus smokes so bad that we got pulled over twice cause the cops thought it was on fire. Maw is just cooking and canning as we go--she started smokin' again. I wanted to stop and catch some fresh catfish but Bubba says "Oh no, we gotta get to the assembly in New York and set up in the campground". We ate up the last of the chickens Tuesday, now all we's got left is side meat, grits an beans. That dumb brother Fenders picks his nose when he thinks we aint lookin'. Maw seen him too. Sis even mentioned it. That Lambert is sure stupid for having studied the truth an all. Now he's sayin' that he thinks that when them gas station guys say "Hep yourself" that they don't mean it's free. He just don't trust anybody.

Its a good thing Newly came along. He can fix about anything. He sure does cuss a lot more on the road that he does at home. We all pretend that we don't notice cause we need his tools now an his pickup at home, furthermore, we is taught by the truth to overlook little differences. People sure throw a lot of good stuff away. The barrels by the road and behind the grocery stores are the best. Bubba's letting his beard grow out a little more than usual. He cut the sleeves off his tee shirt and has taken to wearing a sleeve around his head. Granny says he looks like one of them motorcycle guys who pass us all the time. Them straw ticks that Maw and Grammy made for mattresses are getting hard as a rock. We all drink an extra couple glasses of elderberry wine and that helps us sleep. Grannys taken to sitting up at night with the shotgun in her lap. The dogs have been restless so we tie them outside. I sure don't see why we brought them along.

Well I've gotta go. It's my turn to go talk to the stupid cop. This makes three times! These Kentucky cops must of never seen a motor home school bus before. I think all they want is a closer look. Oh my gosh! Sister Neew just tried to stand on her head on the bus seat again. It's a good thing she wore underpants this time. Hey, good news--they raise tobacco here--right by the side of the road. Bubba's talkin' about getin' a trailer on the way back home. I'll write when we get to New York.

Clem

PS: LeRoy saw a sign in the store that said "boneless round", he says that sounds like Bubba.