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Posts by Vinny
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82Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please
by flipper insome of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .
in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.
but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.
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82
Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please
by flipper insome of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .
in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.
but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.
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Vinny
Hi again Flipper.
I agree that (generally speaking) having non JW discussions with your zealous JW daughter is usually a good idea.
But, the fact that SHE brought up the Witness religion subject, all throughout her letter, and that you did not respond to any of it will cause some kind of negative reaction from her overall. That's just my opinion. And I do hope I'm wrong.
In reply to Hubert you said this: "but if she does bring it up (the JW Religion) I will tread lightly and only in a positive vein".
**** But, you see, she already did just that; bring up the religion subject, and you personally, all throughout her letter. So then I'm curious as to why you decided to ignore all of her religious points in the letter in your reply back. I believe that may have been a mistake.
One thing though, which does make a difference in my mind, is that I thought you were already disfellowshipped of disassociated. I just read in your bio that you just faded away instead. Which is good in the sense that she can continue to have somewhat normal conversations/ relationship with you as long as you don't get too into JW things.
But then on the other hand, you say she has not spoken to you at all in over a year. And from her letter to you and Mrs Flipper it sounds like the reason she is not communicating to you is all about religion.
I do know this: Had I not shared information as to just why I no longer believed Watchtower had an exclusive monopoly on God, as food for thought to my own step daughter, I do not think she would have ever had enough of a reason to even begin to question the Watchtower Society overall. In fact, it was not until I HEARD CRITICAL INFORMATION that was the impetus for my own journey out.
Somewhere and somehow critical information needs to be presented before any thoughts of going further can possibly originate in the mind of those indoctrinated.
In your reply to me above you said this:
"Yes- I realize there is a huge elephant in the room. But when I last saw my daughter and talked to her a year and three months ago - I barely started saying ANYTHING about the witnesses and she came unglued and started preaching at me about how sinful we all are and " how we don't deserve to live " and she had this real intense, serious look on her face like she was not only trying to convince me- but convince herself ! It's the fear that the JW's put into them that makes them get emotional about their beliefs !"
**** One difference between then, and now, is that you saw her face to face that last time. When I tried to speak to my own pioneer step daughter, initially face to face, I too received the same kind of response. It was very unreasonable and emotionally charged ... but not totally unexpected.
That's why I waited a little while, and then decided to send her my sincere heartfelt thoughts, but this time IN WRITING.
This way, I'd have the time needed to specifically write everything I wanted to share with her, (with the proper tone and balanced with a ton of love and support), and she'd have time to let it all digest and sink in before possibly over-reacting. Sharing in writing is much more effective than sharing face to face from all of my experience here. It allows time to sink in.
And what a difference it made for us. You could just see her guard dropping down little by little in the weeks and months that followed. I never brought any of it up again. I never needed to.
Your daughter has already given you the opportunity to share with her, in writing, whatever you choose to based on her letter to you which is all about the JW faith involving YOU, her father. Doing so after this super sweet one you already sent may be viewed as a major setback and emotional withdrawal and betrayal. Unless of course she brings it up again on her own.
While I applaud the efforts of cult experts, like Hassan, there simply is just no one size fits all approach available in helping cult victims out. Had you told Hassan that she brought up religion all throughout her letter to you , I would be willing to guess he'd give you some green light to discuss something about it in your reply. That opportunity, this time around, is now gone.
And like I said above, somewhere, somehow, at some point, there needs to be some kindof channel of information available to the one still inside the cult for the germination process to even begin. Otherwise all they will ever get is what Watchtower feeds them on a daily basis.
My wife is out and two of three kids solely because I presented the first seeds of WT doubt. From there, the rest is up to them. The one stepson (still in) never even allowed any kind of information to be shared with him in written form. He just shut us all out and continued to be brainwashed on a weekly basis.
Your daughter is allowing this opportunity for you to share the facts as they truly are, in written form right now. I just hope you really think it though if she does reply back and you get another opportunity.
Take care Flipper. My wife and I both know how you feel and how wonderful it would be to get your daughter back and out of this destructive religious institution. At least there is some hope for you both!
My best to you all,
Vinny
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Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please
by flipper insome of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .
in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.
but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.
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Vinny
Sure, it's a lovely letter and all that.
But, there's an obvious elephant in the room here Mr. Flipper. In her letter to you, she discussed the subject of her JW faith all throughout it; and, just how much she wants you to come back to the faith that you raised her in.
To then completely ignor her most important points (for her), altogether, will absolutely not work here, in my opinion. I believe she will consider your ignoring her most important points in her letter as an insult. I know I would.
And you do not have to attack her JW faith at all either here to help her out.
Today, I tell people that I believe God transcends any one particular faith. That I see truly good people, God fearing people, among ALL faiths. That if the Jehovah's Witness were the only religion, that God approved of, then I'd certainly still be one today.
I would suggest telling her that you have found many specific reasons, which prove to you, why the JW religion does not have an exclusive monopoly on God today. (I personally would share some of those exact reasons in your reply, very respectfully, in a kind loving, non-attacking tone, because you may never get another chance).
I would also suggest saying to her that you respect the fact that she wants to continue be a Jehovah's Witness... (and as you know I raised you as one).
You can certainly mention a few things, in general, about why you are no longer a JW, IN ADDITION TO all the nice things you said in your draft here. You can say BOTH.
But to completely ignore the subject entirely, especially after she brought the subject up in her letter to you, is a big mistake from my point of view.
My step daughter is now 22. I raised her since she was only four. When I disassociated (in 2006) she was a regular pioneer, living with us at home. My wife and I encouraged her to do that. I lived the JW life to the full. I was a respected elder, school overseer, gave talks all over and more for her entire life.
So when I disassociated, and my wife followed (faded) three months later, after her own examinations, our pioneer little girl was devastated. Her entire life ripped apart. And now living with a dreaded, labeled apostate traitor.
I told her right from the start that I would completely respect her decision to remain a Witness. That my decision to leave was for my own reasons. Same with her mother. And for one full year we did just that. We let her continue to be a JW and live with us. Not an easy thing to do on our part, I can tell you that. Her friends would stop over and shun me. The elders would invite her to move out and live with them. So I had to bite my lip for some time. But it was the right thing to do. After all, we raised her as a JW as well. And every single friend she ever had were JW's.
Almost a year later or so, while still living with us, though no longer pioneering, I sent her a very long e-mail letter explaining the reasons why I no longer believed the JW faith were God's chosen religion.
I never pushed it hard, but just shared my specific reasons for leaving, offering details that prove God, to me, was not with the WT leaders, along with staying a reasonable human being even though being unfairly treated... --which she saw first hand with her own eyes--... (just like your mistreatment, your daughter is seeing with her own eyes, I am sure).
Within a month or two she started missing meetings and then field service. Within six months she was completely OUT.
I can tell you from first hand experience that these issues must be addressed at some point and time Mr Flipper. And since your daughter already brought up just how much she wants you to return to the faith; IMO, you should share with her (as kindly and respectfully as you can), just why it is that you cannot.
Just my opinion here, from experience. I would not avoid the issues entirely. I think she deserves a very long, heartfelt letter with all kinds of facts and details along with stating your love and affection for her.
I certainly wish you the best of luck on helping her to see the light!
Vinny
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Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please
by flipper insome of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .
in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.
but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.
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My experience at the District Convention today - Appreciate your comments
by BonaFide ini know i am the one to constantly harp on this board how the organization has lost its "swagger" and the baptism and attendance is going down, and people are waking up.. not so fast.. the audience cried, i mean a lot of people cried when they played some of the songs from the new songbook.
some had bethel singers who sounded pretty good singing them.
so many after the program were saying how touched they were.. then the new release of the book showing how the book of acts prefigures the organization today.
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Vinny
It's very simple here folks. No need to complicate anything.
As long as a JW believes that that the JW religion is, "God's organization", and that the GB/Watchtower is, "God's Channel on earth", then every single assembly, every new release, every district convention/circuit and special day assembly; every single field service experience, circuit overseer visit, WT and awake magazine delivered (etc etc etc)... will bring excitement, encouragement and spiritual happiness to those that remain a part of that system.
This is a proven fact again and again.
The problem is once anybody takes those WT colored glasses off, and puts down the JW Kool-aid that is served at every opportunity, and sees things as they truly are, then EVERYTHING has an entirely different appearance and meaning amid better more honest and accurate lighting.
Most people that I have known of, that realized the facts as they truly are (that WT is not God's anything, but instead all the mistakes, flip flops, blinking lights, medical disasters, prophetic failures, false predictions along with arrogant "we is the only truth and all others are false religion and doomed to death" that paint the REAL JW picture here).... cannot stand to sit through an entire meeting without feeling nausea and a real need to get out of there. (Including myself, wife and daughter once blinders were taken off).
Seriously, once you know what we all now know, many folks cannot even stand sitting through one meeting.
And the problem with approx 7 million JW's (including all those Bonafide says were crying and so inspired), is that they are told not to consider ANYTHING that is critical. Even if such information is 100 percent truthful and right under their own noses handed on a plate.
You see folks, that is no way to live. It is called living in a box and creating your own little world of make-believe inside that box. And then when somebody wants to show you the reality of what you are doing, they cover their ears and eyes and throw all kinds of negative, hurtful and unfair labels on the one offering the true facts as they really are. This is not a healthy way to live and is in fact being dishonest. But it is a part of their worship (don't consider any critical info), and therefore very difficult to get through to them at all.
But this is what Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and too many others to count do on a daily basis. Avoiding the facts.
It's what I DID for over 15 years. Just closed my eyes to the true facts and followed the Governing Body wherever they led me.
But one day... the real truth got out and landed on my lap... all by accident.
and then ... GREAT SCOTT MARTHA!!!!
(The printed page tells it like it really is): http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
But until that happens, as long as you believe everything that JW's tell you they are, then I was just like Bonafide's little group of experiences above: Happy, emotional, charged up and more. Many (if not most here) were like this too when active JW's.
Open your eyes to the real facts as they honestly are (which most never do), and the whole deal collapses like a deck of cards.
Poof.
Vinny
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How do you respond to the JW statement: "The First Century had congregations, preaching, Elders, Servants, C.O.'s, and so do we!
by BonaFide inwell?.
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bf.
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Vinny
My wife and I were asked that same question a couple years ago in an e-mail from a very fanatical Witness friend. Here is part of that e-mail from him:
"PLEASE read paragraphs 15& 16 in today's WT study article, April 15 (2007), the 2nd article... and let's assume I agree with all the things that have been bothering you... PLEASE let me know how you feel about these 2 paragraphs ??? As I read them I instantly thought of you, and how my heart hurts over your situation... remember, no need to get into why you are where you're at... we're assuming I agree with you about all that... but I am curious to know how you deal with the info in these 2 paragraphs in your heart & mind."
MY REPLY two years ago was: Hello M***, I read that WT when it came out in Feb. I also realize it was your recent WT Study lesson. But it does not make your case for JW's somehow being the "sole truth on earth". Sorry. For one thing, those "appointments", which helped establish Christianity, all ceased to exist by the end of the first century. Yet even with the disolution of that first century Christian congregation entirely, along with all those "appointments", we still have Christianity throughout the entire globe TODAY. So how did that happen? And before the Jehovah's Witness religion ever showed up Christianity was already GLOBAL! Why? Because so many other christians preached and shared what they read and knew. We also now have the COMPLETE BIBLE, which was not available back then. 2 Tim 3:16 says," All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." For those who believe the bible is from God, The bible itself teaches, counsels and disciplines these same people today. Those that read and apply it benefit from it. This is what helps people today. If you were a fornicator and read Jesus and Paul's words against fornication and the consequences that followed, then you have been counseled, reproved and helped by what you just read in the bible. Additionally, ALL Christian denominations have "elders" (older men) in forms of ministers, deacons, priests etc, as well, that are available and do help others in their churches. Jesus said he is the vine and his followers are the branches. There is no "religion" in between. Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. People read the bible, people apply the bible in their lives and people share with others what the bible teaches. People also fellowship and exchange thoughts with other Christians often... even without some church. There is no need for being told by WT leaders what they can say, read, watch, do, who they can associate with etc. Furthermore the entire article just assumes that people want to leave the WT Society for selfish, unjustified reasons, just looking to go at it alone without reason. But the fact is M***, many leave because of The Watchtower Society long list of problems, such as which you have avoided again and again. Many see the hypocrisy and control along with the numerous unscriptural policies throughout the last century. Here check this out: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm That Watchtower article is an attempt to try to stop the bleeding of many JW's leaving the organization itself. This is what has been happening. This is exactly what's happened to my family, as you well know. People are leaving the WT Society because of facts like what are now on your lap. Hope this helps. Have a good one! All the best, Vinny **** Back to May 09. And here are two threads from the JWD (that I also attached to my e-mail reply), posted at the same time the article itself came out. These will help answer your questions specifically. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/130685/1.ashx http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/135420/1.ashx
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Emotional Blackmail and ex-JWs
by Lady Lee inbased on a discussion last night and a request to write something about it i went hunting through some old posts and found this one.
emotional blackmail and jws.
we were discussing whether it is emotional abuse when the elders visit us after we have left and wind up being nasty or try to pressure us to go back.. so i was thinking - what are some of their tactics and would they fit into this category?.
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Vinny
My wife's 23 year old JW son (the only one still in, out of 5 of us), will not even take our phone calls or allow us any visits/contact with his three year old son (our grandchild). And his mother (my wife) is not disfellowshipped or disassociated... she just stopped going. ( I disassociated three years ago, but raised him since he was six years old).
He said --word for word here-- "if you want to have any relationship with us then you need to come to the meetings".
Now folks, THAT is some good old fashioned emotional blackmail.
Yep, we sure couldn't wait to go running back to "true worship" after that offer.
What a hoot.
Vinny
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My letter...
by yippyskippy007 ini'm new to this forum and am also sacolton's wife.
alot of you already know about me because he's talked about me on here before...even has posted pictures, at which he incurred my wrath upon my discovery.
anyways...i'm about to submit my letter of disassociation to my local congregation and i thought i would share it.
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Vinny
Good for you!
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It's midnight!!!!!! On a Friday! and I'm OUT!!!!!! woooo
by Kudra innot like out of the closet.
went to a show, haven't been in a while.
i saw the carnivaleros.
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Vinny
Now go to bed.
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Vinny
1- New Light.
2- Before becoming an elder, and being counseled on just why I was not appointed an elder the last time they said; "you don't bring enough food to gatherings". No joke, that's what I was told.
3- When my 18 year old son (whose 33 year old mother had recently committed suicide along with his being on his own for the first time, flat broke, suicidal, drug dependency, tore his ACL in two needing immediate surgery and more), needed to move back in the house and had agreed to go to all meetings and cut off all worldy association, I was then told by my PO that I might be the one destroyed at armageddon for allowing him to move back in and that I had cut the hand of Jehovah short.
WTF
4- More "new light' in the current mags. Hurry and read.
In the end, "new light", and just, "wait on Jehovah", were the deal breakers for me regarding blood, vaccinations, organ transplants, alternative service, missed false predictions and other JW disasters/embarrassments that I had learned about just months earlier.
That was some really lame excuses/advice from so many heavies and pushed me all the way OUT.