Posts by Vinny

188

Hi I hope i am welcome

by cantleave in

jw
friends

hi guys and gals,.

i am a hypocryte.

brought up in the "truth" but know its not.

I have been in your shoes as well, as have so many others today. But unlike you I was not born into the faith, so was in a better position to walk away rather than being handcuffed as you obviously will be.

The Watchtower is not God's organization! And I have proven that to myself, with unbiased eyes and truly heartfelt and thorough examinations.

Here is my own story out: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922/t/Letter-of-disassociation.html

I too was an elder, the school overseer, had assembly parts, bookstudy overseer, gave more talks than I can remember and everything else that we do.

Leaving was not easy at the time, but for me, it really was the right thing to do. Since then my wife, my pioneer daughter and one son have also left entirely. My wife's son (my 24 year old stepson, though I raised him since he was six) is still in and shuns us all today. Will not even answer our calls. And has directly stated that, "we need to go to the meetings", to have any relationship with him and or our first grandson (now three years old). How's that for some good old emotional blackmail as incentive to go back!

The JW faith is a religion and nothing more. There is some good in it too. But the evidence that God has directed the Watchtower as his channel is simply not there.

I have debated over the past three years with the most capable JW's and am today 100 percent certain that there is no possible explanation available that can justify all this: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

Did Jehovah get all these things and Watchtower bad ideas and mistakes wrong again and again? Or was it the WT leaders who CLAIMED God was directing them that got those things wrong again and again?

We all know the answer.

We are not talking about a few things wrong. But literally THOUSANDS and pages and pages of just bad news here. Most of which the average Witness has no idea about. Which of course is by design.

Did Jehovah get the forbidding of Vaccinations, Organ transplants and Alternative Military Service WRONG FOR A COMBINED 83 YEARS?

Or, is the evidence rather clear that instead, the Governing Body (nothing more than a group of imperfect men from New York City), simply gave their best guess and then had to eventually REVERSE all of these positions despite so many Witnesses having to suffer consequences during the time they were enforced as current JW policies?

Did Jehovah also get all those end of the world predictions, in writing, wrong as well?

1914 came and went!

1925 came and went!

Beth Sarim (a huge watchtower humiliation) came and went!

1975 came and went!

The generation of 1914 came and went!

The new millennium (year 2000) came and went!

Who was it that made all those false predictions, in writing; God, or those same WT leaders who CLAIM that God is using them alone, once again?

We all know the answer.

Is it not at least reasonable to think that God would choose an organization that does not have one of the absolute WORST track records over the past 100 years of any religion on the earth as his own chosen channel today?

And here is a thread I put together that proves the Watchtower Society is Wrong on blood today:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/medical/150613/1/WT-SOCIETY-IS-WRONG-ON-BLOOD

Which still causes many unnecessary deaths even now.

I too spent many years in the organization, as you have. I prevented my own kids from pursuing any kind of college education. Prevented them from playing any organized sports or school plays, after school clubs, boyscouts, non JW friends and so much more.

I HOPED I could prove that everything I believed and taught to others for the past 15 years was "the truth".

But the more I honestly examined the evidence the more it became clearer to me that the only people who think God has chosen the JW's for anything at all, are JW's themselves about themselves.

I too am 1000 percent convinced that God exists. And I have examined along with debated with atheists extensively on many sites many times. I am content now that I simply do not have all the answers as JW's often claim to have.

I see the hand of God in the lives of many other people, from numerous other faiths, along with some who choose no particular faith at all, many times now.

Yet how presumptuous and arrogant of us to believe and teach that all people in the world need to become a JW in order to have God's blessing in their lives.

At this time I tend to lean towards belief in a transcendent God that rises above all religions on the earth today and whose hand is available to all.

By leaving the JW world and weekly routine I have found a happier life. Same with the rest of my family. Freedom from a controlling religious institution, that makes great claims all the while condemning all other people and religions can do that.

But that is my journey. You have sound reasons to stay somewhat in, IMO. It can just become very difficult to maintain living a lie from all that I have seen and heard since leaving three years ago. At one point I could not sit through even one more meeting knowing it was not what I had believed and had been taught it was.

But I do wish you the very best in your attempts to find some balance and normalcy throughout all of this.

One extreme recommendation from my point of view that I'd like to make is to read Ray Franz's two oustanding books. Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.

Both can be found purchased in book form or downloadable as PDF's (for privacy) here:

http://www.commentarypress.com/Publication/English.html

He is a very sincere and humble man as well as a devout Christian today. He was a Governing Body member for over nine years. His insights are simply invaluable for anybody wanting to examine the JW religion in an honest and complete light.

I wish you and yours the very best!

And I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

Take care,

Vinny

52

I went to a JW get-together last night

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

so here in the jw complex, well, 90% are jw's, a couple of my friends had a bbq yesterday.

i was invited.

they had heard about some of my comments and questions regarding the organization, but i guess they forgot about that.. the friends there were from three different congregations.

Vinny

I've read enough of your posts now, Bonafide, to truly wonder whether you are full of bologna.

Your posts, all over the site, continue to slip in these kinds of JW remarks:

"The friends there were from three different congregations. The young teenagers sat on the porch and talked amongst themselves. There was a prayer, talking about the unity in the Organization and the privilege of having the Truth. The food was good."

****

"Then the host asked a brother visiting from Russia how he came into the truth. He said he studied with the Witnesses to prove them wrong, and then he became a Witness. Everyone loved the experience."

****

"Again, no one talked as if there was any separation between the WT Society and the Bible. It's all one big Truth. Completely interchangeable."

****

"One thing I like about the Organization is that it encourages us to use our minds, and we don't get into trouble for asking questions, the Organization loves questions like the ancient Bereans did."

*****

"Like he said, "Brothers, this is the truth. We are so close now. We need to read the Bible every day. And meditate. That is the best education, not a PhD. So do not lose your zeal brothers!!! We must continue to preach!!!"

*****

"I enjoyed talking about the New System with other JW's. I go camping and backpacking occasionally, and our group used to talk for hours about what we will do in the New System. It seemed true, that God had a purpose for us to live forever and learn and grow. Petting the lions was just a little part of it. I didn't worry about the details, because I believed that Jehovah God would work that out of course.

You know, that was probably the only Kingdom song that really made me emotional. "If you Keep your Eyes on the Prize." Remember that one? "When eyes of blind ones see again, when ears of deaf ones hear again."

*****

"The audience cried, I mean a lot of people cried when they played some of the songs from the new songbook. Some had Bethel singers who sounded pretty good singing them. So many after the program were saying how touched they were.
Then the new release of the book showing how the book of Acts prefigures the Organization today. More positive and happy comments. I mean the friends really seemed happy.
And then today the Drama, everyone around me seemed to be touched, and there was a ton of applause. I started a couple of conversations after with my car group about the stereotyping in the Drama, and that very few young ones in the Organization have a father who has a business and is a Witness, but my comments didn't seem to have much effect.
Yes, there were a lot of old ones there, and some have died since last year. But the children who are our age, in our 30's and 40's, who were raised in the truth, the majority are still in, and from what I could see at this convention, they seem to be in for life.
I wish I could do something about this, but it's hard when the entire assembly is singing praises about the new releases and experiences.
Any suggestions or comments?"
****
"Today I went in field service with my best friends, a married couple. They visited me when I was a CO in another area, and when I was in Bethel. They call me all the time, they have helped me with different matters, they just really try to do what they understand is right. They are so excited about theupcoming assembly, and recently visited Bethel for the Gilead Graduation. They are ready at any hour to talk to me. Today in service they talked so excited about new things in the organization, and the husbands talk points, and the bookstudy, etc etc. They love having fun too, and movies and traveling. We call ourselves "realistic" Witnesses.
They really believe in their hearts this is God's organization. And to top it off, THEY ARE VERY SMART."
****
"For example, we talked about 1914 once, and they simply said, "Well, we leave things in Jehovah's hands. We are positive, not negative about things. We have seen so many people helped by the organization, how could we doubt it?"
****
"Witnesses show "love" and attention, and the promise of a resurrection. I often applied that to the people in the territory, that we should look out for those grieving, or depressed, and teach them the truth."
****
"So what about YOUR parents, those of you raised in the "Truth?"
How did THEY become Witnesses? Was it also that they happened to be home one day? How did the Witnesses find them and convince them?"
Or maybe you are still a zealous JW.
****
"I became a regular pioneer while I was still in High School. I used to set my alarm for 5 am three times a week and walk a few blocks to do streetwork. Hardly anyone on the street, but I felt good about it. I was interviewed on the District Convention about that. A brother Jerry Opris, C.O., from North Carolina interviewed me.
Then I went and served in the Midwest for a couple of years.
Then when I was accepted to MTS and became a missionary, I really tried my best to be zealous. The hourly requirement for a missionary is 140 hours. Missionaries over 60 can put in 130 hours. I think that has changed recently, both lowered by 10. For the first few months I did the 140. I don';t think I missed it even once. After that I wanted to get into the circuit work. My C.O. told me to show the Branch how serious I was. So I started putting in 150 hours a month. Sometimes more.
So finally I was in the Circuit work. The hour requirement for Circuit Overseers was not 90 hours a month. Regular pioneers had to put that time in, but we were told it was OK to put in less if we were shepherding or doing congregation stuff. Now the hours are 70, but I don't know what the hour requirement for C.O.'s is. But even still I put in over a 100 hours each month in service as a C.O. I was in the circuit work for over 7 years.
I would even go in service sometimes on Tuesday mornings. The C.O. starts his visit on Tuesday night, and goes in service on Wednesday, but I wanted to really show I was zealous, so I would go out with the local congregation. And then I would also go in early morning streetwork sometimes. And evening witnessing.
I also wanted to be zealous in studying. I read the Societies publications, I thought that was studying. I read the Bible 5 times total, yes the NWT. I tried to get through the Insight Books, but I didn't make it. I made a "research notebook" where I wrote study projects. I did the Creative Days, the Herods, the Caesars, District Convention Themes, Parallels between Moses and Christ, Governing Body members, Prophecies yet to be fulfilled, Fruitage of the Spirit. I still have that book.
I did have time to relax, but I was sure Armageddon was coming before the year 2000, so I wanted to be as zealous as possible. My conscience would really bother me if I didn't work hard during the week.
What a waste of time. I did think I was serving God, and I did make a lot of friends in my assignment, some I am still in touch with. But I put in thousands of hours of field service, and for what?
So, what about you?
How ZEALOUS were you?
BF"
***** Bonafide, I could literally post HUNDREDS of others just like these! They are all over your the threads that you show up on.
You could write a pro JW BOOK just from your posts here on JWN. They're everywhere.
Sure, you have to throw in a few critical comments here and there as well. Otherwise you'd be get beat up just like Reniaa gets SPANKED AND TROUNCED all the time.
Just so you know, many see what you're doing. And you may get hammered as well soon.
Many people here have suffered tremendous loss at the hands of the Watchtower Society. People have died because of these policies. The closest of family cuts-us-off, all the time . Friends for 20 plus years drop you like yesterday's news.
Many here get judged, labeled and shunned (for life) for simply following their conscience.
You should think about these things before you decide to post one of your walks down JW memory lane.
Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

El Kabong writes: "There is NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BORG AND THE BORG AGAIN. You are ALL full of shit. You all claim to have all the answers. YOU all don't know shit. Both sides TWIST scriptures. Borg and the Borg againers (born again xtians), you are turning more people off to God than you are helping.

IDIOTS"

**** Yep. I tried to say something like that but with a wee more tact.

87

What would it take for you to conclude that the WBTS is not God's channel?

by Mickey mouse in

jw
friends

i wondered if you could answer this question for me?

you seem to be fine with the fact that they are false prophets, that they have changed the bible and that they have entered into an agreement to "uphold the aims of the un".. what is the deal breaker for you?.

i suspect that there isn't one, and that is not a reasonable position.. please tell me there is something they could do that would make you question their legitamacy?.

Vinny

Awwww, Reniaa wants to show us a little list why she thinks Watchtower is God's organization. (how sweet of her) Only, there were some things MISSING from porr Reniaa's little list. 1914 came and went. 1925 came and went. Beth Sarim (was huge WT embarrassment) and came and went. 1975 came and went. The generation of 1914 came and went. The 20th century came and went. Vaccinations stomped out polio, diptheria, tetanus, flu, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, rubella and more. Organ transplants were never the same as "cannibalism" as Wt land stated and have saved or extended hundreds of thousands of lives. Many times dropped doctrinal understanding has been brought back. (That aint not "light getting brighter" folks. That's called BLINKING LIGHTS.) How come these things aren't on your little list Reniaa? You see this is why Reniaa is fighting a losing battle. The WT was never God's anything. One look at the whole picture proves this without a doubt to any rational mind. But change is tough for some. It is not easy to see the truth for some JW's. That WT land is not what they say about themselves. There is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using WT Society. In fact there is a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God has never used them: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Deal with that for a while Reniaa and JW's. (if you got about a week to read through it all). For example: Was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience" matter in 1961? Was God"s spirit with WT when they then said Organ Transplants are same as "cannibalism" in 1967? Or was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980? Was God behind all those changes each time? Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time? Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God? AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!! We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES. Yet Reniaa has no answers to these things placed on her lap many times. And how come they are not on any of her little lists? And that would be because Reniaa CAN'T REPLY!!! That's how bad defending WT world has become. Just telling you how it is once again. Let's take a little stroll Reniaa. Just you and me today. You can even lean on my shoulder if you need to. Cause facing the real JW facts is not an easy thing to do... I must say. So I am here for ya. An intelligent lady is approached by JW's at her home. They offer her a bible study and she says ok why not. Then, as we all know, the "Bible Teach" book is pulled out instead of the bible, but she goes along cause they tell her it's just used as a "guide" and that we are really studying the bible. (And hopefully they convince her to use the JW bible, but not too pushy quite yet). She goes to some meetings and gets love bombed. But even then says it seemed somewhat forced and unnatural, but it was still okay. She is told that JW's are God's exclusive channel today. She is told that God is using only JW's today. She is told that unless she becomes a JW that she (along with the whole world not JW) will be destroyed very soon. She gets scared about being destroyed, trusts what she is told and then decides to be a JW right away. But she can't. She has to wait until the next convention or assembly to get baptized. She also has to be going out in the door to door field service, placing WT and Awake magazines and trying to start new studies with the same bible teach book and the JW bible as well as going to all of the JW meetings. She also has to take a test by answering many baptism questions from three different elders scheduled over several weeks. Still she was told JW's are God's channel, that God directs the WT Society and always has since 1918 and is ready to be a JW. BUT THEN.... One day before getting baptized this intelligent woman decides to look up the JW's, on Google, just to see what others say. After all, if it's "the truth", it can sure stand up to close scrutiny. Right? But then... holy smokes... She seees.... THIS: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm And then learns that WT world has more holes in their doctrine than a whole pallet load of swiss cheese! She sees that they were wrong on vaccinations, organ transplants and alternative military service for a combined 85 years. She sees that every other religion on the earth, along with all bible scholars say that JW's ARE WRONG ON BLOOD. and sees many people and little children are allowed to die for this same sorry blood policy. She sees that the only people saying JW's are "God's Organization" are JW's themselves about themselves. She sees that she can't do Christmas, birthdays or holidays even though nothing in bible says not to. She sees that her own kiddies will be discouraged from playing organized sports, doing after school plays or other activities. She sees that a spiritual man in the USA cannot even carry a microphone because he has a clean, neat and trimmed BEARD. (poor little brother with a beard) She sees that she cannot even wear pants out in service or to meetings. She sees places like Red Cross and YMCA (and all the good they do) are part of satans world and she must stay away from. She sees that even if a little kiddie says somebody took their pants off and touched them where they should not, that unless there was another Witness to this activity, that no action could be taken against the adult. And in fact you could not warn other families with little kids even if you knew your kid was telling the truth. She learns that nobody is allowed to disagree with any of the changes in JW teachings without being counseled and unless accepting that counsel then being DISFELLOWSHIPPED AND SHUNNED FOR THE REST OF HER/THEIR LIVES. She learns that even if she just disagreed with just one teaching, or just decided she no longer wanted to remain a JW for whatever the reason, and handed in an official letter leaving the JW's, that she would be SHUNNED BY ALL JW'S INCLUDING HER VERY OWN FAMILY FOR THE REST OF HER/THEIR LIVES. She learns that the JW's predicted many times the end of the world, all in writing, but that each time it was proven FALSE and never happened. She learns that JW's said young kids will never grow old in this system, discouraging college, but that those kids are now indeed getting old and many are broke and wityh dead end jobs. She learns that Jehovah is NOT the actual name of God. That the actual pronunciation is unknown and that many people choose to use respectful titles instead (as Jesus himself did), rather than use a name is wrong when addressing the Creator of the universe himself. She learns that despite thousands of JW embarrassing mistakes and writings filling their entire 100 plus year history, that JW's today believe and teach they alone are God's chosen people today and that despite all these mistakes he will destroy all other religions and people of those religions leaving only JW's. She learns all these things along with THOUSANDS OF THINGS SIMILAR. Now, she decides NOT to get baptized. She says thank you JW's but it is just not for her. She no longer believes what the JW's say about themselves, in being God's only channel on earth today. She says the facts prove conclusively otherwise. The only reply given to her after all this is that "the light gets brighter and to keep waiting on God". Or an even sadder explanation that since bible characters made mistakes that it proves God is with JW's today (but somehow not with anybody else). This exact thing actually happens to people all the time, as was reported by a gal on the JWD. She did the whole JW song and dance for a while. She was almost ready to go under the water. But then, SHE LOOKED UP JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ON GOOGLE. And the rest is history, you might say. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/member/28624 You see Reniaa, you need to take off your blinders and see the facts as they truly are. The evidence is conclusive in this case. The WT Society is not God's anything. Otherwise many folks, myself and my wife and kids included, would HAVE NEVER LEFT. When a person is shown the facts as they truly are. And then cannot refute them (as you have not been able here Reniaa... though had many chances), yet then continues on as if nothing has changed, defending a position which is indefensible, GETTING BURIED ALONG THEWAY, such a person could rightly be described as being in DENIAL. This is why I rarely do the JW debate thing any longer. The results are always the same. Anybody that reads these kinds of threads objectively, will see that Reniaa's position of trying to defend the JW's as "God's organization today" has been resoundingly, utterly and emphatically destroyed and defeated beyond any shadow of a doubt again again and again. What can poor Reniaa do. Fine with me if you wish to be a JW Reniaa. At least you know all the facts now. Do what you want with them. But at least the story has been told. My hope is to help make sure others find out the entire set of facts before getting baptized, just as happened with that girl quoted above. Your continuing on as here if nothing has changed is only fooling yourself in the process Reniaa. Make no mistake about it, many have read your posts here on JWN and see how poorly you and WT world have faired here. You cannot defend this sorry WT history along with numerous CURRENT bad policies. http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm ALL OF YOUR ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN TROUNCED. This is how it will always be Reniaa. You will always be running backwards defending the JW religion as "God's organization". Sometimes I do leave for a while just moving forward and letting the JW's be. But then something will come up which reminds me of just how evil these policies can be. My wife will be crying because her son, 23 years old, along with his two year old (our only grandson at this time) will not even take our phone calls much less say hello in person. Or I'll read about another person that DIED following the sorry JW blood policy. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/mother.dies.after.refusing.blood.transfusion.over.faith.fears/14391.htm Or not too long ago ago I walked into one of my kid's best friends in Safeway. We looked at each other crossing paths unexpectedly, and I smiled and nodded. She just looked away without even blinking an eye. I thought she probably forgot who I was. That is until my wife ran into her seconds later and told that JW that she was looking for me. And then that JW told her she just saw me and what isle I was on. Things like this happen every week. I am shunned labeled and judged by JW's as some kind of evil person. And what is our crime for all this? Just disagreeing with WT doctrine. Which is why sometimes folks like me will show up and do the WT smackdown thing to people like you Reniaa. Which after one look at this or any of your other threads, can be easily concluded is some easy thing to do! THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY IS NOT GOD'S ANYTHING. Sooner or later you will just have to face the music. All the best, Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Undisfellowshipped writes: "Thank you and I appreciate what you have written. I apologize if I sounded too dogmatic or harsh or rude earlier. Sometimes I get carried away by my passion for the truth."

**** No problems, I do understand. One of the best things I have taken away from my 18 years with the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, is how can anybody claim any religion is true today for a complete certainty?

A couple months ago two Mormons came by to my home preaching their own message. I was all up for their visit and easily refuted their notion that I must be a Mormon to be saved. That was very easy. But, once we got that cleared out of the way, I was very comfortable allowing them to be Mormons. There was no burning desire on my part to tell them they were in some kind of false religious cult. In fact, who am I to say God is not with them? He very well may be. They sure think He is, I can tell you that for a certainty.

For me, this is a good place to be.

Don't get me wrong, I am still examining, searching and thinking deeply and probably far too often about these things. (We are in a rough economy and I do need to get more things done). I've been reading CS Lewis, Mere Christianity, recently as well.

But the more I see things, with clear and unbiased eyes, the more I am seeing a Transcendent God that rises above any single religious faith.

Thanks for the interchange.

Best,

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

My experiences with my own search for God, spirituality and religion continue to take me in a different direction at times. I am certain God exists. I've debated for days, weeks and even months at a time in the past with atheists here and in other places. I just cannot subscribe to their arguments. In fact I find them extremely weak and unconvincing.

But I am also having difficulty believing that Christianity itself is the one true faith today. It could be. I am still very open. Today, I still pray and worship through the Christian belief system because I am the most comfortable and familiar with it. But I also see powerfully convincing testimony and evidence that God, whoever He truly is, is also with many Muslim people today; with peace loving Buddhists, with Hindus, Mormons, some Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics, Evangelicals, Born Agains, Jews, Hare Krishnas and many MANY others and yes including some Jehovah's Witnesses.

How can anybody PROVE that these sincere people, believing with all their hearts at times, that God's hand is not also in their lives and walking with them too?

Nobody has yet to be able to disprove such testimony to me on a universal basis. Not even close.

I am less dogmatic now than I have ever been.

And I am finding that this is in actuality a great place to be...

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

You see this is a more balanced viewpoint from you in your last two posts. But sadly, this thread is lacking in just that. There are just so many dogmatic statements and beliefs on this thread and most like it in other locations from my experience.

Sometimes I wonder, if the bible is true, if these kinds of responses is exactly what God is looking to discover.

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

And I see you skipped this post entirely.

Undisfellowshipped writes: "Who are you to judge what a "good name" or "bad name" for Christianity is, especially if you deny or ignore what the New Testament itself says?"

**** When Muslims fight/argue/bicker among Muslims, do find such conflicts appealing for the Muslim faith?

When sincere, professed Christians fight/argue/bicker among themselves, do you think such conflicts are appealing to a non-Christian or a potential Christian?

What do you think is happening on this thread?

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

If the bible is true ... and a Christian man believes in the son, and follows the son's steps closely, as well as acknowledges the son as being responsible for their own existence; but also believes the son is separate from the father and subject to the Father (1 Cor 15:28) from his own reading of the bible;... then I cannot believe God would destroy such an individual for this single belief alone.

Sure, if one is also a hypocrite, practicer of sin or more, I would understand being judged adversely. But not based SOLELY on a belief that Jesus is subject to and separate from the Father based on their own reading of the scriptures.

You see this is the problem with religion and Christianity overall.

As I stated back on page 12:

You see, these are the very kinds of things that give religion a bad rap.

There are arguments (among all Christian faiths and individual Christians against other christians all over the world) about these kinds of things (trinity, holy spirit, born again, rapture, tithing, sin, heaven, hell) and so much more.

It turns people OFF.

And then you have all the 1.4 Billion Muslims that will be destroyed if they do not become Christian.

Only the Muslims think that if all the Christians do not become Muslim, then they will be destroyed.

And then we have the Mormons, who claim they alone are the true church. (Trust me, I have the emails and spoken to many).

And then we have the Jews thinking they are still God's chosen people today.

But then again we have all the Jehovah's Witnesses who think all of the above; Muslims, Mormons, Jews and even other Christians along with Buddhists, Hindus and more are all going to get THE AXE. And only they get to make it.

You see folks this is exactly why many people say forget religion.

And I can understand.

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Undisfellowshipped writes: "Who are you to judge what a "good name" or "bad name" for Christianity is, especially if you deny or ignore what the New Testament itself says?"

**** When Muslims fight/argue/bicker among Muslims, do find such conflicts appealing for the Muslim faith?

When sincere, professed Christians fight/argue/bicker among themselves, do you think such conflicts are appealing to a non-Christian or a potential Christian?

What do you think is happening on this thread?

Undisfellowshipped then writes: "Who are you to say that we are "embarrassing ourselves" when you do not even take the time to find out what the New Testament says that Christians should do when it comes to knowing the truth about Jesus and God and having correct Doctrine?"

**** My opinion is that so-called professed Christians arguing/fighting/bickering among so called professed Christians IS embarrasing to the religion of Christianity itself. If you don't like my opinion then too bad for you.

I'll get my violin out for you.

I have read the bible through many times and can tell you this: BOTH SIDES HAVE STRONG ARGUMENTS when it comes to the Trinity.

So, if you believe the God of the bible will destroy the man or woman that serves Him through Christ, with a sincere and sacrificial spirit to the best of their ability and comprehension, yet is on the wrong side of the trinity issue itself, then I believe such a religious/belief system is not worth much at all.

Sorry.

Vinny