Posts by Vinny

82

Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please

by flipper in

jw
friends

some of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .

in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.

but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.

Vinny

No emergency, no pill needed to be taken and no problems. He can post photos all he likes. Good for him. But it will put his fade and relationships with his JW family in danger the more he does so.

And nobody can disagree with that.

If you read how important those relationships (mother and daughters) were for Flipper to maintain, then perhaps you'd see why I wrote what I did.

He could and did disagree with me.

But he went to far and got smart.

Then I had some fun.

I am headed out to see some fireworks now. It's still early in Hawaii.

Best to you all!

Vinny

82

Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please

by flipper in

jw
friends

some of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .

in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.

but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.

Vinny

Flipper writes: "VINNY- My credibility did not go in the dumpster. But you are making yourself look very small minded in your threats against me.

**** Where have I ever threatened you Flipper? That is a LIE and you know it. I will always call you out on lies. Why even lie at all here? I post my opinions and that is it.

Flipper writes: "As I explained on another thread- my witness family does not come on the private section of this board where the pictures were posted."

**** And as I explained (very nicely, btw) your family does not need to see your photos. ANY JW THAT HAS EVER KNOWN YOU can see your pic and then turn you in. It's just that simple.

Flipper writes: " You obviously are taking this opportunity to try maligning my character and I think people are intelligent enough here to see what you are all about."

**** You are the one that turned negative by saying thanks for my unsolicited advice. I was just initially pointing out an observation. I was even very respectful about it. Put on your reading glasses and read it again!

Flipper writes: "If you have differences with me in my tactics perhaps it would be better taken up in a private E-mail. You must have quite a vendetta against me to come off this aggressive. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper"

*** You asked for opinions on this thread and I shared them with you. Probably in greater detail than anybody else. I did so because I had strong opinions and feelings about this very subject, because as you know and as I stated I have been in your very shoes already with my own step daughter and son.

You stated point blank that you could not be direct with your daughter due to needing to protect your fade status. And once you shared that with me I completely supported that direction. But then to see many photos, posted publicly, on an EX-JW website and then you keep bumping up the thread, is a clear contradiction to what you actually wrote.

And after pointing that out you decide to get sarcastic.

It is only then that you get called out for everything in a more direct approach.

Just telling you the facts here. No axe to grind, not jealous of anything or anybody (are you kidding me), not trying to slander you, just being straight up with you.

Agree or disagree is fine. But get smart/sarcastic about it and you can expect a stronger response too.

82

Sending Out a Letter to My JW Daughter - Give Me Your Thoughts Please

by flipper in

jw
friends

some of you probably read my jw daughter's letter to mrs. flipper and me a few weeks ago where she tried explaining to mrs. flipper why she doesn't have anything to do with me ( says i talk negative towards the organization ) .

in that letter though she showed some flashes of her authentic, kind personality and told us she loves us.

but much of the letter was proselytizing to us about how bad the system is and how jeovah will bring a paradise, etc.

Vinny

Notice what Flipper writes on this thread:

"Perhaps you understand why I'm so cautious. ANYTHING I say will inevitably go back to my daughters mother- and she is famous for twisting the reality of what is said about me into a complete lie and fabrication. So- I choose my words carefully."

and then:

"The part about saying I realized I couldn't " support a set of beliefs and teachings " is NOT the thing to say to witness relatives ( especially when an ex-wife with a vendetta gets wind that I say those words- it will go right to my former elders who will call me into a JC, DF me on the spot and my 80 something year old JW parents will then shun me. It would be like shooting myself in the foot ! And then mention that I disagree with the blood issue as well ? I couldn't even GO THERE with a JW relative unless I expected to get strung up before a judicial committee !

and:

"All she (ex wife) would need is for me to slip up and open my pie hole incorrectly"...

And then:

"VINNY- Thanks for understanding the totality of my situation here. It is convoluted and complex - thus the need for caution indeed."

**** Only now I see this thread with his photos all over it posted and now bumped up many times.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/meetups/161620/1/South-Lake-Tahoe-Apostafest-Pictures

You are flat out full of bologna Mr. Flipper.

You missed an opportunity to help your daughter (who basically asked you to give her answers as to why you stopped going) because you said you did not want to blow your cover as a fader.

Yet you post up photos of yourself and the wife, and then bump up the thread many times, on a public site for EX JW's.

If even one JW sees it your fade is dead in the water. They will easily see all of your posts attached to that photo and you will be DF'd with zero chance to help your daughter.

Your credibility ranking just went into the dumpster.

Vinny

73

Aug. 15th WT- "Jehovah Only Loves Those Who Obey the Governing Body "

by flipper in

jw
friends

once again our lurking jw friend sent us this latest mind control drivel from the " witness only " watchtower.

remember - this is the information our jw relatives will study in their witness meetings at their watchtower study.

this is what they are currently being indoctrinated with.

Vinny

Poor JW's like Reniaa think that JW's are God's "chosen ones" today. But as a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" (((THIS))) IS WT SOCIETY'S BABY: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Yep, they own that baby FOR LIFE! Is all WT land's exclusively. Instead of God's channel exclusively, as JW's and Reniaa says, they are the owner of THAT SORRY LIST-- "EXCLUSIVELY"!!!!. BIF DIFFERENCE FOLKS. As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they met together and prayed over many things THAT PROVED BAD NEWS AND EMBARRASSMENTS AND EVEN CAUSED MANY JW'S ((((( TO DIE ))))). As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they had to DROP, REVERSE, CHANGE-UP ON AND APOLOGIZE FOR many sorry teachings and beliefs that should never have been forced on porr little JW's that blindly followed this same collective group. You see JW's as are spinning their wheeels in the mud all over again. Nobody buys this kind of nonsense that has all the facts about WT World. You see (as has been posted too many times to remember now) PEOPLE--(((INDIVIDUALLY)))-- do make mistakes. Even bible writers, apostles and prophets make personal mistakes. That's called life. But COLLECTIVELY--(AS A GROUP OF WRITINGS)-- many people say the bible writings are directed by God. The bible writers also say this about their writings. Which is why the bible is not just "some good book", and nothing more to most people today. But is instead followed and applied in life because many people say bible writers get things RIGHT ALL THE TIME. You see WT world also has individuals that make mistakes personally. I have no problems with this. Even GB members will fall very short. That's life again! But you see folks, here where there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between making mistakes personally, and then posting mistakes COLLECTIVELY AS A UNIFIED BODY : When the Governing Body meets ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY ))))--- AND THEN PRAYS TOGETHER FOR HOLY SPIRIT COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY --- STUDIES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ON SPECIFIC ISSUES ( AS THIS SAME COLLECTIVE GROUP ) --- MAKES DECISIONS BASED ON THOSE PRAYERS AND THEIR BIBLE UNDERSTANDING AFTER MUCH THOUGHT, PRAYER TO GOD AND DELIBERATION AS A COLLECTIVE GROUP --- AND THEN (((PUBLISHES))) THOSE DECISIONS IN THEIR LITERATURE AS A COLLECTIVE GROUP --- THEN HAVE C.O.'S AND D.O.'S GIVE OUTLINES BASED ON THESE SAME DECISIONS AT MEETINGS, ASSEMBLIES AND CONVENTIONS PUSHING AND CLARIFYING THESE PUBLISHED TEACHINGS --- AND THEN HAVE RANK AND FILE JW'S (((BE FORCED TO APPLY))) ALL OF THESE NEW UNDERSTANDINGS AND JW TEACHINGS AT RISK OF JUDICIAL COUNSEL AND DISFELLOWSHIPPING . ONLY THEN TO BE PROVEN WRONG, BAD IDEAS, EMBARRASSMENTS; HAVE TO CHANGE THEM, DROP THEM, APOLOGIZE FOR THEM AND MORE ---- IT CLEARLY PROVES THAT GOD WAS NEVER BEHIND THESE IDEAS OR WITH THOSE THAT MADE THEM AND FORCED THEM AT ALL!!! The little JW's have lost on this thread once again. They all get embarrassed trying to defend all this WT humiliation. Take another LOOK: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm So folks let's all do a little math JW style! 1- According to JW's, "God's spirit" is with the JW's while they make decisions based on God's infallible word. 2- Those decisions are wrong again and again and again. Proving embarrassing mistakes for WT world, causing people to lose out on many things like buying homes, getting education, not having families, kids, pets, not being of 144,00, and more. Those decisions led by the same "God's spirit" also cause some JW's to (((DIE))) and to go (((TO PRISON))) for no reason for many years including RIGHT NOW. You see 1914 came and went. 1925 came and went. Beth Sarim (was huge WT embarrassment) and came and went. 1975 came and went. The generation of 1914 came and went. The 20th century came and went. Vaccinations stomped out polio, diptheria, tetanus, flu, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, rubella and more. Organ transplants were never the same as "cannibalism" as Wt land stated and have saved or extended hundreds of thousands of lives. Many times dropped doctrinal understanding has been brought back. That aint not "light getting brighter" folks. That's called (((BLINKING LIGHTS))). You see this is why JW's like Reniaa are fighting a losing battle. The WT was never God's anything. One look at the whole picture proves this without a doubt to any rational mind. But change is tough for some. It is not easy to see the truth for some JW's. That WT land is not what they say about themselves. That there is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using WT Society. In fact there is a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God has never used them: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm Deal with that pile for a while reniaa. For example: Was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience" matter in 1961? Was God"s spirit with WT when they then said organ transplants are same as "cannibalism" in 1967? Or was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980? Was God behind all those changes each time? Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time? Did God cause folks ((((TO DIE)))) by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God? AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!! We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES. Yet JW's have no answers except to say Vinny is lying, exaggerating, misrepresnting blah blah blah (with zero facts and arguments) AND THAT IS IT. And that would be because JW's CAN'T REPLY!!! Just try to throw some lame tag and label on EX-JW's That's how bad defending WT world has become. Just telling you how it is. Sorry Reniaa and JW's. But Watchtower is not God's anything. Vinny

51

letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa in

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-have-decided-to-leave-this.html.

i have decided to leave this organization!--a letter from a first century christian.

hi, brothers and sisters.

Vinny

Reniaa whines: " I find attacking then just dwelling on old wt's a very poor debating technique"

**** Too bad you can't DEFEND anything against that "very poor debating technique".

All poor lil Reniaa can do is whine about Vinny technique vinny this vinny that blah blah blah. Because she sure can't touch the ARGUMENTS proving Watchtower aint God's anything.

Hey Reniaa, I'm sure Jehovah was behind all this embarrassments. Hey Reniaa why not take another WHIFF: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

Yep, that sure proves God chose Watchtower alright.

Reniaa whines again: "I also find people that need to do declaritive statements on beating someone had the exact opposite happen."

**** Sorry Reniaa, THirdwitless was TROUNCED just like you've been TROUNCED AND SPANKED too many times to count here.

Nobody can defend all that sorry Watchtower nonsense.

Do you want me to post all those times you were SPANKED and then HEADED FOR THE HILLS ?

That's how bad defending Watchtowerland, "as God's channel", is Reniaa. You always LOSE .

Hey reniaa, If the JW's were "God's People" (as you laughably claim), used by God, "His Channel today, "the faithful slave" blah blah blah, then THE FACTS WOULD SUPPORT SUCH LOFTY CLAIMS AS THESE THAT JW'S MAKE ABOUT THEMSELVES.

BUT THE FACTS DO NOTHING OF THE KIND. Flip flops, medical blunders, scientific embarrassments, false predictions, historical failures ((( IS ))) the WT Society history! Surely God can do better than this. AND HE (((DID))) DO BETTER THAT THAT ALREADY!!! Jesus did many amazing things. Moses did many amazing things. There was no doubt that if these things written about them were true that God was definitely behind them and using them. But one close look at WT World is LAUGHABLE for the WT World. THEY ARE WRONG ON BLOOD TODAY. That is one sorry mess they have on their hands that literally allows people (including little children) to DIE without reason. Hey Reniaa, do you let your own children DIE if blood could save them? Please tell. THE JW'S ARE WRONG FOR SHUNNING ALL THOSE THAT SIMPLY WALK AWAY TODAY. There is no scripture, anywhere, at any place in the bible that says to shun the man that believes in Christ yet walks away from the JW religious institution. NONE. Yet these are just two (((CURRENT JW POLICIES))) that are wrong right now. They are CURRENTLY wrong about disfellowshipping those that simply disagree with WT teachings. Read Romans 14 about "inward questionings" and try justifying why nobody can disagree with WT-land without getting AXED. They also just recently flip-flopped again on 1935. How many people did the WT Society LOCK OUT of this "favored relationship" with God and Christ before they passed away because the WT magazine said it was "sealed in 1935"? Just another embarrassment Reniaa. They are wrong on BEARDS today. No good brother, with any kind of beard, (even a neat and trimmed one) can carry a microphone in the KIngdom Hall in the good ole USA. (Poor little JW's with a beard). How's that scriptural? Go ahead answer up for us Reniaa. They were wrong about Vacinations, Organ Transplants, Alternative Service, Beth Sarim, Rape Rules, wrong about Sex with animals or with the opposite sex not breaking marriage ties. They were wrong about 1914 being the end of the world, then 1925, 1975, 2000, the generation that was alive in 1914 being around when the end came. They were wrong about kids not needing college cause the end would come before they grew old. They arrogantly say that, "WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION" --despite their embarrassing, sorry past.

And then go even further in their pomp and back slapping by saying every other religion on the earth as well as all those who are a part of those religions will ALL BE DESTROYED unless becoming A JW. The JW religion loses more of their own children raised in the faith THAN ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS FAITH ON THE EARTH TODAY. They have made mistakes and continue to make mistakes today. Yet, the WT Society also claims that God has selected and directs them (and only them) today. Do you see a problem with these two contradictory issues Reniaa? Does God make mistakes Reniaa? Does God continue to change his mind like WT Society has? Does God get things wrong Rerniaa? Would he serve bad food at the wrong time again and again? Or does the very fact that the WT Society had/has many things wrong indicate to you (and most thinking persons today) that God was never behind these decisions at all. That instead, perhaps these thousands of mistakes (many of which literally cost people their very lives), have been the result of poor decisions made by a few fallible MEN sitting around in some New York city office, that just so happen TO CLAIM God is using them and only them today? Most reasonable people would at the very least be suspicious when men make great claims about God using them exclusively, yet having the very facts then proving God was never behind those decisions at all because they turned out to be wrong and in many cases ARE STILL WRONG TODAY. Those many mistakes, made as a COLLECTIVE GROUP AND PUBLISHED AS "FOOD FROM GOD" present a huge dilemma for such claims that God has selected them. If some salesman at a used car dealership was trying to sell you a very nice looking car, obviously you would be drawn to that car's positive strengths. Maybe it has a beautiful, well maintained exterior with no rust and like-new paint. Brand new tires, a great sound system, motor sounds smooth and more. You see, right away, those positive qualities would stand out to you and most anybody checking it out. As they probably should. BUT... then, what if you also found out that very same car had a SLIPPING TRANSMISSION when you drove it. Do you just ignore this major problem because you see the good that also exists and which you may be more drawn towards? What if after taking it to a mechanic to check out, you found out the frame had been welded in certain places because the car was in a major accident? Do you just forget about that fact because you like color? What if the car overall has a poor record of reliability? Hyundai sure ain't the same as Honda when it comes to historical and reliability records, though they may sound the same. You see it would be FOOLISH AND STUPID to simply look the other way when it comes to examining any possible PROBLEMS with any used car. The salesman may tell you ONLY THE GOOD THINGS about that car. Which is why it would be the wise and prudent thing to have a neutral party (usually some unbiased mechanic) to examine it closely and carefully for you. And how nice to ask a person that used to own that same kind of car how they felt about it as well. There are some good things about being a JW too; just as there are some good things about most any used car out there. But when you look at the ENTIRE JW PICTURE , you will defintely see many problems. Significant problems. (((((EVEN LIFE CHANGING PROBLEMS)))))!!! The WT Society has (no exaggerations here), one of the ABSOLUTE WORST historical and reliability records of any religious institution during the past 100 years. And this fact despite the arrogant, haughty and presumptuous claims that God has selected ONLY THEM TODAY, and that every other religion on the earth today, and people of those religions (regardless of how kind, sweet, spiritual, active, righteous etc they are) are all going to be destroyed by God unless they become a JW too. The JW's will tell any bible study only about the GOOD THINGS (just like some used car salesmen will do the same about a car he wants to sell). But where does that bible study hear about all those false predictions? Where does that bible study learn about the WT Society being WRONG on Vaccinations, Organ transplants, Alternative Service, Beth Sarim, Rape Rules, Marriage Ties not being broken by sex with animals or homosexuality and hundreds of other things like these? NO BIBLE STUDY WILL EVER HEAR THESE THINGS FROM ANY JW TEACHING THEM TODAY. I would know, I studied for three years, was baptized for 15 years and even was an elder for several years. Yet I never heard of most of these things I just mentioned here. In fact, how strange would it be, if a used car salesman actually FORBID YOU from going to former owners of that same car you are thinking of buying to get information about that used car. Yet this is the exact policy that JW's have about former JW members today. You are not allowed to speak to EX-JW's regardless of why they left or what kind of person they are today. This is not an exaggeration. Nor is this a healthy, Godly or scriptural policy either. But such is the facts here for all JW's on 7-2-2009. Which is why my wife and I always tell people to examine examine examine. The more a person learns about the entire JW picture, the better educated they will be to make an informed decision. While most that have fully examined the WT Society end up saying thanks but no thanks to remaining a JW it does occasionally happen. But at least then they know what they are getting into. At least they know more than those that only study with JW's. Which is why folks like me occasionally show up and share the facts about the WT Society in public venues like this and SPANK folks like you Reniaa. These things prove to most thinking people that God has not chosen the WT Society at all. There are many good things about the Mormons too. They are very moral people, have closer family ties (and family study nights) than the JW's do. They do not do drugs, or drink any alcohol, they go door to door worldwide and have a very united brotherhood along with twice as many in number as the JW's. But do these positive qualities then mean that they alone have the true faith? Well, this is what Mormons believe about Mormons btw, that they are the true church today. (I have the e-mails to prove it). Just like JW's believe about JW's. But when you look at either religious institution more closely, you will see numerous problems. (Like a pretty colored car but with engine rods a knocking ).... ALL JW"S WILL NOT ONLY HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERY NEW JW POLICY (JUST LIKE THAT HORRENDOUS BLOOD POLICY), BUT MUST ALSO TEACH IT AND INSIST OTHERS FOLLOW IT TO EVEN GET BAPTIZED. Same goes for policies on shunning, the current teachings on all those dates and everything else. You simply MUST ACCEPT these things and even promote them to others to become and to remain a JW. Which is why so few ever become a JW once they learn all the facts. And though despite SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES ARE HEAPED UPON THEM, many even go as far as leaving the JW's once they have been truly enlightened. As happened with me. And often will end up stopping by here. Many JW doctrines literally caused people following them to DIE. No exaggeration. Did you need a kidney, liver, heart or more between 1967-1980? What do you think happened to those obedient JW's that refused based on the WT Society position that such transplants are "cannibalism"? Same with vaccinations from 1929 to 1952. Or alternative service for over 50 years. And blood for over 65 years and counting. Here, read this story for example: http://www.ajwrb.org/experiences/stories.shtml#kidney And if the JW's did not accept every single teaching as just that, from God's chosen organization, guess what happens? YEP, Counseled, then judicial meetings and then THE AXE; DISFELLOWSHIPPED and shunned by all JW's including your own family FOR LIFE. So you see an honest examination of the JW past clearly shows that Jehovah was never behind such teachings. If God was NOT behind them then, as the facts prove conclusively, what makes anybody believe He is behind them now? JW's have always claimed that God has chosen them. The facts do not support such grandiose and self righteous claims. Any thinking person can learn much from examining the history of an individual, an organization, government leader and more. When you want to buy a house, what to the creditors do? They carefully look over your credit "HISTORY". Because they can then learn what kind of track record you have. Want a Job, you fill out an application which includes past employment. ONE CLOSE LOOK AT THE PAST CAN OFTEN GIVE AN INDICATION ABOUT THE FUTURE!!! For me, such evaluations make sense. They are fair to do. And in the case of the WT Society such honest evaluations can reveal much that contradicts what the WT itself says about itself. Like I already said, WT has the all time worst record on false predictions, medical disasters, doctrinal and historical failures of any religion during the past 100 years. So tell us how YOU might reconcile these two opposing viewpoints then. WT got it wrong.

WT got it wrong. WT got it wrong. WT is Jehovah's channel for dispensing food at this time. WT got it wrong. WT got it wrong WT got it wrong. WT is only place for salvation. WT got it wrong WT CURRENTLY has it wrong. WT CURRENTLY has it wrong. WT is God's channel for spiritual food today. You see the big PROBLEM on your hands now? What do all these mistakes and problems do for such arrogant claims the WT makes about itself? You are going to have to come up with some answers, at least in your own mind. You are going to have to explain what all these mistakes and current unscriptural policies do for the WT grandiose claims. You see, we need to base such decsions of whether the WT is chosen by God on logic, facts, proof, the past track record as well as. Don't you think? By doing an honest examination of the JW faith, which includes looking at its history, looking at the good AND THE BAD, one will come to perhaps a slightly DIFFERENT conclusion than if one simply TAKES THEIR WORD FOR IT. Reniaa thinks God chose Watchtower. BUT MOST HERE BELIEVE YOU HAVE BEEN MISLED. And the difference between you and I is that I can back up those beliefs and claims with history, with facts, with scripture and good old fashion common sense. And all you can say Vinny has bad debate technique. heh Vinny

51

letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa in

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-have-decided-to-leave-this.html.

i have decided to leave this organization!--a letter from a first century christian.

hi, brothers and sisters.

Vinny

Poor JW's like Reniaa think that JW's are God's "chosen ones" today.

But as a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" (((THIS))) IS WT SOCIETY'S BABY:

http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

Yep, they own that baby FOR LIFE!

Is all WT land's exclusively. Instead of God's channel exclusively, as JW's says, they are the owner of THAT SORRY LIST-- "EXCLUSIVELY"!!!!.

BIG DIFFERENCE FOLKS.

As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they met together and prayed over many things THAT PROVED BAD NEWS AND EMBARRASSMENTS AND EVEN CAUSED MANY JW'S ((((( TO DIE ))))).

As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they had to DROP, REVERSE, CHANGE-UP ON AND APOLOGIZE FOR many sorry teachings and beliefs that should never have been forced on porr little JW's that blindly followed this same collective group.

You see JW's as are spinning their wheeels in the mud all over again.

Nobody buys this kind of nonsense.

You see (as has been posted too many times to remember now) PEOPLE--(((INDIVIDUALLY)))-- do make mistakes.

Even bible writers, apostles and prophets make personal mistakes.

But COLLECTIVELY--(AS A GROUP OF WRITINGS)-- many people say the bible writings are directed by God.

The bible writers also say this about their writings.

Which is why the bible is not just "some good book", and nothing more to most people. But is instead followed and applied in life because people say bible writers get things RIGHT ALL THE TIME.

You see WT world also has individuals that make mistakes personally. I have no problems with this. Even GB members will fall very short. That's life!

But you see folks, here where there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between making mistakes personally, and then posting mistakes COLLECTIVELY AS A UNIFIED BODY:

When the Governing Body meets ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY )))) ---

AND THEN PRAYS TOGETHER FOR HOLY SPIRIT ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY )))))---

STUDIES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ON SPECIFIC ISSUES ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY ))))) ---

MAKES DECISIONS BASED ON THOSE PRAYERS AND THEIR BIBLE UNDERSTANDING AFTER MUCH THOUGHT, PRAYER AND DELIBERATION ---

AND THEN (((PUBLISHES))) THOSE DECISIONS IN THEIR LITERATURE ---

HAVE C.O.'S AND D.O.'S GIVE OUTLINES BASED ON THESE SAME DECISIONS AT MEETINGS, ASSEMBLIES AND CONVENTIONS PUSHING AND CLARIFYING THESE PUBLISHED TEACHINGS ON JW'S ---

AND THEN HAVE RANK AND FILE JW'S (((BE FORCED TO APPLY))) ALL OF THESE NEW UNDERSTANDINGS AND JW TEACHINGS AT RISK OF JUDICIAL COUNSEL AND DISFELLOWSHIPPING .

ONLY THEN TO BE PROVEN WRONG, BAD IDEAS, EMBARRASSMENTS; HAVE TO CHANGE THEM, DROP THEM, APOLOGIZE FOR THEM AND MORE ----

IT CLEARLY PROVES THAT GOD WAS NEVER BEHIND THESE IDEAS OR WITH THOSE THAT MADE THEM AND FORCED THEM AT ALL!!!

JW's have lost on this thread once again.

They all get embarrassed trying to defend all this WT humiliation.

Poor Reniaa. Next time think twice before posting such sorry nonsense.

You just keep losing Reniaa.

But get used to it.

Life defending JW's is sure one rough road.

Aloha,

Vinny

51

letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa in

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-have-decided-to-leave-this.html.

i have decided to leave this organization!--a letter from a first century christian.

hi, brothers and sisters.

Vinny

(More Replies for Reniaa's sorry Thirdwitless quote )

Just more of the same sorriness from Thirdwitless. This is so boring now. Thirdwitless has had all of his lame and embarrassing arguments completely TROUNCED. THIRDWITLESS AND HIS SORRY LAUGHABLE EMBARRASSING WT ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY TROUNCED (((AND BURIED!!!))) So deep that obedient little JW's with truck load of shovels have no hope of finding thirdwitless. HE HAS BEEN BURIED THAT DEEP. Just read the thread folks. Repeated for emphasis: JUST READ THIS THREAD. But you see thirdwitless still laughably clings to JW's have "the Truth" nonsense. Even though he has been trounced and buried so deep in the ground that JW's with truck loads of shovels can't find him. Thirdwitless can't refute the facts proving JW's are not used by God that have been DROPPED IN HIS LAP --MANY TIMES NOW--. Thirdwitless cannot prove his JW's are used by God ... FOR ANYTHING AT ALL! Not even one thing. Let's see what NEW laughable quotes we get from thirdwitles today: Thirdwitless says:.. "1)‘Gods people’, led by his "spirit", was teaching doctrine that they believed to be true thru many years of reseach and study of God's word." ***** Can somebody tell us how JW's have been lead by God's "spirit", as thirdwitless says, when those many decisions reached proved to be WRONG? AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. IF GOD'S SPIRIT WAS LEADING THE JW'S THEN THE TEACHINGS WOULD NOT JUST BE (((((BELIEVED))))) TO BE TRUE... THEY WOULD IN FACT (((((BE TRUE))))). I guess God's "spirit", that was prayed for by the JW's just wasn't up to the task those days, eh thirdwitless? I guess God just purposely MISLEAD all those JW's so that later on God could "refine" them. Is that what happened thirdwitless? God must have MADE THE JW'S GET THINGS WRONG, so God could refine and cleanse them later on so folks like thirdwitless can say things like, " see how many things JW's got wrong? This proves JW's are God's channel" BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH With powerful logic like this from thirdwitless who needs Vinny? Or anybody else? Poor thirdwitless and poor JW's. What a mess they have on their hands today. Got an extra week free, then just enjoy some more of this: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Yep God's spirit was sure with those JW's alright! The printed page tells it like it is. Printed WT Pages are the JW's BIGGEST PROBLEM TODAY. Thirdwitless then says:... "2) When they realized they were wrong thru continued study and following the leadings of God's spirit, the WT then "corrected" it to their new understanding to what they believed to be correct." ***** Folks you gotta love sorry JW's like thirdwitless. He is still lost in space somewhere. When are you coming back to earth? What doe you mean when you say "they realized they were wrong". You already stated that "God's spirit" was leading them in point number 1 when they made those poor decisions and PUBLISHED ALL THOSE BAD DECISIONS AS FOOD FROM GOD HIMSELF. You see, thirdwitless says that JW's were, "led by God's spirit" in his point number 1 quoted above. Just read it. But then that same "God's spirit" leading JW's obviously must have misled those JW's. Cause JW's sure got lots of things wrong and embarrassed themselves too many times to count. JUST TAKE A LOOK: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm And now in point number 2 thirdwitless says that same "God's spirit" now corrected those wrong embarrassing things that the same spirit was leading them to do in point 1. Does thirdwitless see the problems he has with his own statements? (Hope Reniaa is paying attention)

Thirdwitless says God's spirit led the JW's when they published embarrassing things and mistakes. Thirdwitless NOWSAYS God's spirit helped JW's correct those embarrassing things and mistakes that God's spirit lead them to make. Folks this is exactly why thirdwitless has folks like Topsey say, "Nope the JW's aint for me". And Gareth say nope I aint a JW either. And Topsey's wife now says nope not for me too. And not one EX-JW that I have every heard to go running back to the organization. You see Thirdwitles, you must not be doing a very good job on Topix. And one look at this thread shows just how sorry thirdwitless defense of the JW's is. Cause Thirdwitless is doing a very poor job on this site explaining JW mistakes. He IGNORESs all the facts placed in his lap. Many pages worth. He instead tries to say that since some bible folks made mistakes that JW's are proven to be God's organization. This is completely WORTHLESS. As has been proven many times now. Maybe we can change thirdwitness name to badwitness ... or lostwitness... poorwitness... nowitness... missingwitness... buriedwitness..... sadwityness... spankedwitness.... He has been so badly buried that no JW's with trucks of shovels can't find him. Yet Thirdwitness continues:.. . "3) and then the WT/JW refers to this "correction" to something else, as a “refining” because that is what God's word prophesied about his people and refers to it as," ****** So folks let's all do a little math from thirdwitless! 1- According to thirdwitless, "God's spirit" is with the JW's while they make decisions based on God's infallible word. 2- Those decisions are wrong again and again and again. Proving embarrassing mistakes for WT world, causing people to lose out on many things like buying homes, getting education, not having families, kids, pets, not being of 144,00, and more. Those decisions led by the same "God's spirit" also cause some JW's to (((DIE))) and to go (((TO PRISON))) for no reason for many years including RIGHT NOW. 3- AND NOW, According to thirdwitless, because many of these things were wrong, thirdwitless says it proves God is with JW's because they changed some of them now which means (to thirdwitless) that God is refining the jW's. Only thirdwitless does not deal with the FACTS that WT world is wrong RIGHT NOW on many things. Only THirdwitless says this "refining" thing that must be happening a lot to JW (cause they sure got lots O' things wrong) does not apply to any other sincere Christians or Christian denominations. Only thirdwitness does not admit that some things they changed because THEY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHANGE!!! 1914 came and went. 1925 came and went. Beth Sarim (was huge WT embarrassment) and came and went. 1975 came and went. The generation of 1914 came and went. The 20th century came and went. Vaccinations stomped out polio, diptheria, tetanus, flu, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, rubella and more. Organ transplants were never the same as "cannibalism" as Wt land stated and have saved or extended hundreds of thousands of lives. Many times dropped doctrinal understanding has been brought back. That aint not "light getting brighter" folks. That's called BLINKING LIGHTS. You see this is why Thirdwitness is fighting a losing battle. The WT was never God's anything. One look at the whole picture proves this without a doubt to any rational mind. But change is tough for some. It is not easy to say the truth for some JW's. That WT land is not what they say about themselves. That there is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using WT Society. In fact there is a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God has never used them: http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm Deal with that for a while thirdwitless and JW's. For example: Was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience" matter in 1961? Was God"s spirit with WT when they then said organ transplants are same as "cannibalism" in 1967? Or was God's spirit with WT when they said Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980? Was God behind all those changes each time? Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time? Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God? AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!! We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES. Yet thirdwitless has no answers except to say that these mistakes PROVE God is with wt world AND THAT IS IT. Even though ,as already proven a few lines above, many things WT changed because they HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHANGE. And when his sorry excuses saying it's okay for WT to make AND PUBLISH all those bad ideas is TROUNCED AND BURIED we get nothing in reply. And that would be because thirdwitless CAN'T REPLY!!! That's how bad defending WT world has become. Just telling you how it is once again. You cannot defend this sorry WT history along with numerous CURRENT bad policies. ALL OF YOUR ATTEMPTS HAVE BEEN TROUNCED. This is how it will always be THirdwitness. You will always be running backwards defending the JW religion. Which is why sometimes folks like me will show up and do the WT smackdown thing to people like you Thirdwitness. Which after one look at this thread, can be easily concluded is some easy thing to do! THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY IS NOT GOD'S ANYTHING. Sooner or later you will just have to face the music. All the best, Vinny

51

letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa in

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-have-decided-to-leave-this.html.

i have decided to leave this organization!--a letter from a first century christian.

hi, brothers and sisters.

Vinny

51

letter of disassociation from a Christian

by reniaa in

http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-have-decided-to-leave-this.html.

i have decided to leave this organization!--a letter from a first century christian.

hi, brothers and sisters.

Vinny

Reniaa writes: "I think this letter by thirdwitness aptly shows what I was trying to illustrate to cantleave on another thread, that we can attack imperfection and make it an excuse for our own issues. Reniaa"

**** And I SPANKED Thirdwitless on many threads for this laughable nonsense.

Since Reniaa wants to post Thridwitless sorry nonsense attempt to justify Watchtower's mistakes, I'll just post MY REPLY to Thridwitless sorry nonsense trying to justify all Watchtowers mistakes..

(After all, we sure do agree that Watchtower has all kinds of sorry mistakes).

Poor Thirdwitless. It's time to take porr thirdwitless BACK TO THE WOODSHED . He cries that God is with WT-world despite all the mistakes and embarrassments costing JW lives, JW careers, JW families, JW prison time, and more. Our Poor little Thirdwitless is in sad shape. He says David made mistakes now. But God was with David. So that means God is with WT world ONLY , but not with any other christian religion or people of those religions regardless of how spiritual or devoted to God and Christ they are today. ONLY (((THE JW'S))) GET THIS FREE PASS TODAY. HOW BOUT THAT! With powerful reasoning like this, there must be a LOOONG line to sign up for new JW's. But where are they. I don't see them here in Topix. Maybe they are all sleeping. Maybe they are watchinhg movies today. Everybody makes mistakes personally. As I have said many times. But WT land goes FAR BEYOND JUST MAKING MISTAKES (((PERSONALLY))). They (((COLLECTIVELY))) ---- ((((( PUBLISH )))) those mistakes, ((((( AS "FOOD FROM GOD" ))))) --THEN force them on all JW's,-- WITH THREAT OF DISFELLOWSHIPPING-- and and then say God is directing ONLY them. BWAAAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH You just gotta love that. HERE IS PROOF THEY BELIEVE GOD USES ONLY THEM AND THAT WT-WORLD HAS BEEN AND IS TODAY HIS CHANNEL. Just READ FOR YOURSELF folks: 1919 "Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?" {WT Apr 1 1919 6414} 1933 "To feed or teach his people the Lord has used the Watch Tower publications.. No man is given any credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watch Tower publications." {WT Dec 1 1933 263} 1939 "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose." {YEAR 1939 85} (A PERSONAL FAV BELOW) 1942 "The Watchtower does not consist of men's opinions" {WT Jan 1 1942 5} ( you have to love that one) -another Golden gem- 1957 "Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people .. It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God." {WT Jun 15 1957 370} " As the voice of God"...(I am not making this stuff up). 1969 "Jehovah's organization as directed by his 'faithful and discreet slave' class should influence our every decision also.{WT March 15, 1969 172} "Should influence our every decision also" (It's in print. I did not invent this stuff. I couldn't even if I tried. Sorry.) 1979 [Of those living at the time of Armageddon, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved] {WT Feb 15 1979 30} Watchtower 9/15/93 page 22 : "But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be NO PLACE ELSE TO GO FOR SALVATION".. How about that one! SEPTEMBER 1996 Kingdom Ministry Page 1 paragraph 3 Walk by Faith We must also be firmly persuaded that Jehovah is leading us by means of his visible organization under the direction of “the faithful and discreet slave.”(Matt. 24:45-47) We demonstrate our faith when we are “obedient to those who are taking the lead” in the congregation.(Heb. 13:17) Humbly working in cooperation with the theocratic arrangement manifests our trust in Jehovah. SEPTEMBER 1, 2004 Watchtower magazine Pages 17-18 paragraph 18 Beware of “the Voice of Strangers” Obeying Jehovah’s voice also means obeying Jesus’ voice, for Jehovah himself told us to do so.(Matthew 17:5) What does Jesus, the Fine Shepherd, tell us to do? He teaches us to make disciples and (((to trust “the faithful and discreet slave)))).” NOVEMBER 15, 2002 Watchtwoer magazine Page 23 "How Can We Make Our Days Count Before Jehovah? Daily reading of the Bible and Bible-based publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave” DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US". ***** There is is folks, IN PRINT. "IS NOT THE WT BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY THE ONE AND ONLY CHANNEL THE LORD HAS USED." "THE WT MAGAZINE IS GOD'S MEANS OF COMMUNICATING WITH HIS PEOPLE ON THE EARTH" "THE WT DOES NOT CONSIST OF MEN'S OPINIONS" "WE SHOULD RESPOND TO JEHOVAH'S VERY DEFINITE CHOSEN CHANNEL AS THE VOICE OF GOD" "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASSS SHOULD INFLUENCE OUR EVERY DECISION" "WE MUST FIRMLY BELIEVE JEHOVAH IS LEADING US MY MEANS OF THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE AND BE OBEDIENT" "DAILY READING THE BIBLE AND WT PUBLICATIONS DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US". ***** No other way to interpret it folks. The problem is..... that following the WT Society this has led to much PAIN AND SUFFERING, DEATH, EMBARRASSMENTS, LOST OPPORTUNITIES, BROKEN FAMILIES UNFAIR SHUNNING AND WORSE!!! Sorry Thirdwitless and other poor little JW's, but God was never behind any of THIS: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm You see, thirdwitlesss says that the holy spirit revealed their mistakes and they changed up on them afterwards. But like I already DROPPED IN HIS LAP, many changes were because they had no choice but to change since many of their PUBLISHED WRITINGS never came true. 1925 for example. LETS TAKE ANOTHER LITTLE WT STROLL WITH THIRDWITLESS ABOUT 1925: (thirdwitlesss sure don't like these strolls does he?) 1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89. 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262. Once again, as with the 1914 date, the revelation was attributed to "God Himself". 1922 This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct ...(Watchtower, July 15, 1922, p. 217) 1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4-23. 1925- "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of .. 1925.. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line .. it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." {WT May 15 1922 page 150} 1925- "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3. 1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 p262 ** *** Yep all this, IN WRITING, about 1925. Now, did the light get brighter Thirdwitless? NOPE! NOT AT ALL. So then what happened Thirdwitless? Here is what happened. 1925 .... CAME..... AND.... WENT!!!!! Now we can all see how this ruins WT claims that light got brighter and that God was behind any of these PUBLISHED WT TEACHINGS. All they were was big EMBARRASSMENTS and laughable. But it got worse! Notice how WT world tried to lay the blame on those poor little JW's: 1926 The Watchtower, page 232. "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." (AM AZINGLY, THE WATCHTOWER ACTUALLY BLAMES THE JW'S, "INFLATED IMAGINATIONS", WITH THAT ONE). BUT IT STILL GOT WORSE AGAIN!!! Then came good ole BETH SARIM!!! W ant me to quote all that too? (awwwww ..... WHY NOT!) March 15, 1930 San Diego Sun: "San Diego Mansion -- With All Modern Improvements -- Awaits Earthly Return of Prophets." Jan 9, 1931 San Diego Sun, "David's House Waits for Owner." A reporter asked Rutherford how he thought those ancient men would look and he replied he thought they would arrive in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats! Perhaps due to the embarrassment of such a ridiculous statement, a year later in 1932, the booklet, "What You Need" showed an illustration of those old prophets in ancient garb. It wasn't the first time JFR would stick his foot in his mouth. Nor was it the last. This same newspaper article stated that in the garage, "stands a new, yellow 16-cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property of the place." (The end never came, the "ancient worthies" never resurrected and Beth-Sarim was quietly sold in 1947.) But just like 1914 and 1925 BETH SARIM ...... CAME... AND.... WENT. See we can go on and on. Many things like these never had new light at all. Their published writings simply NEVER CAME TRUE. And here is the other problem for thirdwitless and his laughable "refining claims". How can God refine a bad idea for the JW's, but at the very same time lead them to NEW BAD IDEAS? Explain that one thirdwitless? For example, if in 1980 God was "refining" the sorry Organ Transplant is CANNIBALISM WT embarrassment deal. Then how could he allow THIS AFTERWARDS: "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." {WT Jan 1 1989 12} [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"] ".. there are many indications that 'the end' is much closer than that [the turn of the century]" {WT Mar 1 1984 18-9} "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." {TNSK 216} "For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don't think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day.. We are living in the last days of the system of things." {AWAK Nov 8 1986 78} **** Once again Poor thirdwitless gets taken to the woodshed. His sorry JW attempts to excuse all those mistakes is DEAD ON ARRIVAL. Yep, that would be the same DEAD ON ARRIVAL as all that WT embarrassments were when they first came off the presses D.O.A.. G od was never behind any of it! Poor thirdwitless Poor woodshed. Life is tough. Vinny

280

Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo in

following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.

i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?

consider these two scriptures:.

Vinny

You guys have no life.