Steve asks vinny many times, " who created God?"
***Now Steve, that is a very fair question. I would never purposefully ignore that question either.
But let me tell you this: All the other atheists that have been around here and that know me, all said at the same time, "I wish Steve did not ask vinny that question at all."
Now, I am happy to repost it again for you, especially since you keep asking for the answer, like you think it means the end of the road for vinny and God. But it does not at all.
So sorry atheists, but since steve keeps asking, I get to post the answer again which also includes reasons why I think the bible is inspired:
Take your time to read it all the way through.
**** This is such an old, sophomoric argument from atheists. I've already answered this before in other places. But to appease you, I will address here again:
1- Everything which has a beginning has a cause. This an understood and accepted principle in human civilizations throughout the earth. If it had a beginning, then somebody or something made it. Fairly simple. The computers each of us are using at this moment had to be made by somebody. Mine was made by Apple, for example. But if there were no name mentioned at all, we still know that somebody had to make it. Design begets a designer.
2- The Universe, including our earth (and all life upon the earth) had a beginning. Most scientists believe in the 'Big Bang" theory. While omitting God altogether, the common belief is that it did have a definite beginning and is still developing and expanding.
3- Therefore, the Universe, that had a beginning, must also have a Cause. That Cause, in my opinion is God.
4-The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information. It claims to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it could be authored by God. As briefly listed on another thread (now defunct) here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
5- The bible tells us that God had NO beginning.
Psalm 90:2 ...Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God.
psalm 93:2... You are from time indefinite to time indefinite.
Isaiah 57:15 ....God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’
Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.Revelation 15:3 ...righteous and true are your ways, King of Eternity.
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH
Sure, there is a red corvette just sitting in North Dakota somewhere too...
YOU ARE DEAD IN WATER ATHEISTS.
There is just no way that it is even remotely possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided chances. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.
The many systems that allow life on this earth to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and finely tuned with other systems. Again, by some accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just no way these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by chance or in fact did come together by chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.
Bwahahahahaaa
AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Folks, our little atheists also believe that the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time.
Yep, our little atheists believe that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.
Posts by Vinny
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Vinny
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147
Atheists, Why the Anger?
by XJW4EVR inok, so you deny the existence of a god, or you lack belief in a god.
my question why do you get so angry over a mythical being?
no one gets as upset over the tooth fairy, santa claus or the easter bunny, as i have seen some of the atheists on this board get over the slightest mention of god.
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Vinny
Lore said:..."I already answered an extremely similar list HERE and he still hasn't gotten back to me on it"
: )
8 PAGES? You are so full of bologna. Can I Call you Oscar Mayar for now on? You are full of it today Lore. Eight pages of vinny TROUNCING silly atheism's all things from nothing lame replies.Let's look and SEE.
Tell me this, if you can buy into such laughable explanation as this, then you are STUCK with red corvette in your lap once again. And, if you can buy into such laughable explanation as this, then why can't a Powerful, Intellectual Creator be on your list of possibilities? Please answer that. Why be so adamant against creationism, when the alternative is just plain impossible?
Is THAT what you call 8 pages of explaining how life origiates from non-life??
"NOW DEAL WITH IT ATHEISTS!
This is why you athesists are STUCK with red corvette on your foreheads for life. It applies, it fits, it works. For those of you that want to try wiggling off the hook because red vette aint living, breathing, self-replicating life form, you are then BURIED by the fact that neither is the earth, moon, sun, and stars or universe living, breathing, self-replicating life forms. Neither is atmosphere, water cycles, photosynthesis, weather systems etc living breathing self-replicating life forms. But I already addressed that in the other thread. I am only repeating myself here AGAIN. This is why Almost Atheist failed in presenting the argument correctly. Is why atheists arguments above have no legs at all."
***** You see folks, this is what Lore calls dealing with these issues, answering these questions. I call it ATHEISTS getting TROUNCED AND BURIED so many times that back hoes can't find atheists.
Well Lore, if universe never had a beginning, then your God must have a beginning goes OUT THE WINDOW. So which is it? And how can something so precise and structured as the universe get there, just like it is today, where science can tell you exactly which stars, moons, planets etc will be where in 100 years? Without any guiding hand of intellect? All by mere chances? The earth with all beautifully balanced SYSTEMS, all by lot's of dice rolling and luck??
1: big bang explodes, spewing clouds of debris.
2: over a long period of time thicker parts of this cloud are drawn together by gravity and form spheres, stars, black holes, planets, asteriods etc.
3: Tada, you have a universe with over 70 sextillion stars. That's 70 sextillion solar systems which can contain multiple planets. (Note, this does not produce an orderly universe, it produces one in which planets, stars and even entire galaxies slam into each other. If you happen to observe an orderly universe please let me know.)
4: At least one of those 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars has a planet orbiting it that is capable of supporting some form of life. And that spins... lots of planets spin so I'm not sure why you mentioned that, but whatever. At least you didn't mention gravity as a qualifier this time.
5: That planet has an atmosphere but it's drastically different than the one we have now, after plants evolve and can produce oxygen, you have a different atmosphere.
6: Ozone forms naturally from water molocules seperating due to the ultraviolet radiation from the nearby star."
If through some cosmic "BIG BANG", ALL of the billions of stars in our own organized, orderly Milky Way Galaxy, as well as the BILLIONS of other organized and orderly Galaxies with their billions of stars came into existence. And if inside our very own organized and orderly galaxy, in what is known as our own orderly SOLAR SYSTEM, we have at just the right distance from our perfectly sized SUN, a perfectly located and sized planet EARTH, that also rotates at the perfect speed of 24 hours (needed to sustain life) as well as orbits around the sun at the perfect speed of 66,600 mph to keep it in that precise orbiting pattern and not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun itself. And if this perfectly located, spinning and orbiting EARTH also has perfectly, purposeful and finely balanced SYSTEMS upon it (NEEDED TO SUSTAIN LIFE) such as different atmospheric layers, with protective ozone layer, with just the correct amount of gases needed to sustain life. (.Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, argon, water vapor and other smaller trace gasses).
And if UPON this perfectly located, spinning EARTH, with it's many perfectly balanced features and systems (found in the middle of an organized orderly universe), there also happens to be a variety of LIVING THINGS on this earth, with ITS OWN amazingly complex varieties of different systems such as digestive, circulatory, reproductive, elimination, immune, neurological etc etc, that just happened to originate from NOTHING AT ALL, through some BIG BANG, into an organized gargantuan UNIVERSE, with a perfectly located, spinning, orbiting EARTH located within that universe, that just so happened to come WITH the many FEATURES needed to support life, along with all these many varieties OF LIFE FORMS that supposedly arose from lifeless matter, primordial soup, to polymers, into complex living things including human BRAINS and beyond; then FOLKS if all this happened, ***ALL ON ITS VERY OWN***, without any INTELLECTUAL SOURCE anywhere, then THAT RED CORVETTE showing up in the wilderness with gas, keys and everything in place is a PIECE OF CAKE. That Red Vette, all on it's own, is easy as counting 1,2,3 when compared to all THESE OTHER things arising from and existing because of a series of what can only be described as FAT-CHANCES, ALL ON THEIR VERY OWN.
NOW DEAL WITH IT ATHEISTS!
Is also why so few humans ever buy into it. -
147
Atheists, Why the Anger?
by XJW4EVR inok, so you deny the existence of a god, or you lack belief in a god.
my question why do you get so angry over a mythical being?
no one gets as upset over the tooth fairy, santa claus or the easter bunny, as i have seen some of the atheists on this board get over the slightest mention of god.
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Vinny
Poor, poor AlanF; goes to three different threads with the very same load of NOTHING. What a lame contribution from you. You answer no questions at all. You have no answers at all. Instead you ride in like Yosemite Sam shootin your blanks looking like an atheist with not even a CLUE.
Where did God get His Morals? Simple, He didn't get them from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD THEM. Nothing difficult about that at all.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Alan F, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Alan F, how does it feel believing that a red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Alan F, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today? Or put life back where it ONCE WAS?
4- Alan F, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Alan F, what does it say to YOU when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
More later. -
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Vinny
Poor, poor AlanF; goes to three different threads with the very same load of NOTHING. What a lame contribution from you. You answer no questions at all. You have no answers at all. Instead you ride in like Yosemite Sam shootin your blanks looking like an atheist with not even a CLUE.
Where did God get His Morals? Simple, He didn't get them from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD THEM. Nothing difficult about that at all.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Alan F, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Alan F, how does it feel believing that a red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Alan F, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today? Or put life back where it ONCE WAS?
4- Alan F, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Alan F, what does it say to YOU when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
More later. -
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Athiests
by BR25 insorry if i that is the wrong spelling.
i just want to say that i used to be judgemental of athiests, but as a jw backer everyone on here finds nothing but wrong doing with the orginizations.
well i am sure i can find wrong doing with other churches and their teachings as well.
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Vinny
Poor, poor AlanF; goes to three different threads with the very same load of NOTHING. What a lame contribution from you. You answer no questions at all. You have no answers at all. Instead you ride in like Yosemite Sam shootin your blanks looking like an atheist with not even a CLUE.
Where did God get His Morals? Simple, He didn't get them from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD THEM. Nothing difficult about that at all.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Alan F, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Alan F, how does it feel believing that a red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Alan F, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today? Or put life back where it ONCE WAS?
4- Alan F, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Alan F, what does it say to YOU when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
More later. -
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Vinny
I am not sure what you mean. I work from a Mac and do not get all the features the PC gives, which is why I have to use caps. But the formatting shows up fine on my screen. What do you see?
Is this some kind of trick?
Just kidding.
Thanks, but I have no idea what the problem is or what to do about it. My mac has zero pop ups and zero viruses in almost two years. No way do I want to use the PC. Though I do have one for a backup. But with my mac, I never need the back up.
I know, sounds like a commercial for Mac's.
v
out to din for the evening. Need to be a better son. Mom leaves on Tues... -
147
Atheists, Why the Anger?
by XJW4EVR inok, so you deny the existence of a god, or you lack belief in a god.
my question why do you get so angry over a mythical being?
no one gets as upset over the tooth fairy, santa claus or the easter bunny, as i have seen some of the atheists on this board get over the slightest mention of god.
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Vinny
TROUNCE TIME!
I see lore posted this silly fairy manifesto in two places. That means my reply to lore caan go in two places now. Cool...
By lot's o luck and many fat chances!
Even in controlled settings.
Even with all the parts right there in front of them.
Atheists get buried by this little problem they have.
Sorry but every time I have to do this:
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahahah
Poor atheists do not like being in mud. But when we offer them a way out, they say, no thanks, I like the mud better.
Poor atheists.
Poor mud.
Poor vettes.
Tsk tsk. -
64
Athiests
by BR25 insorry if i that is the wrong spelling.
i just want to say that i used to be judgemental of athiests, but as a jw backer everyone on here finds nothing but wrong doing with the orginizations.
well i am sure i can find wrong doing with other churches and their teachings as well.
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Vinny
TROUNCE TIME!
By lot's o luck and many fat chances!
Even in controlled settings.
Even with all the parts right there in front of them.
Atheists get buried by this little problem they have.
Sorry but every time I have to do this:
Bwaaaahahahahahahahahahahah
Poor atheists do not like being in mud. But when we offer them a way out, they say, no thanks, I like the mud better.
Poor atheists.
Poor mud.
Poor vettes.
Tsk tsk. -
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Vinny
Infamous said:..."ok vinny. lets start with the answers to your questions... first do i believe that this all happened by chance? i have answered that several times here... i have said that im not sure... i have not completely ruled out either pssibility yet"...
But let's discuss just WHY God may allow these situations to exist for a moment anyway. While it is true that nobody enjoys suffering, pain and the like, it is also true that these conditions can help develop desirable qualities in the individuals that experience them. In fact the scriptures says that Jesus LEARNED OBEDIENCE and other desirable qualities through his difficult times and sufferings while on the earth. *If* God is the Creator of all things, and if he allowed his only begotten SON to take the beatings and persecution that he did, then obviously SOME GOOD can also be the result by allowing these less than desirable situations to exist today as well.
In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." So once again we can see some value in God's eyes by allowing trialsome conditions and situations to exist. Just because we humans may not fully understand exactly WHY God has allowed certain things to take place, does not mean that he does not exist at all. This may be some kind of opportunity for humans to gain an inner strength, perhaps a greater appreciation for when life is better, free from all these problems plaguing mankind. When I had a very serious staph infection earlier last summer, I was very scared and worried for a few days. However, When I knew I made it out of the woods, safely, I was really happy to be alive. My appreciation had ACTUALLY GROWN through that experience. The existence OF these problems however, does not just automatically discount or deny God's VERY existence. At least not in my mind. HE has simply decided to allow these conditions to exist at this time, for reasons, that are not crystal clear to humans. And again, he has promised to permanently remove these negative features that affect life today.
Life would have hope. Eternal life under wonderful conditions is at least possible.
He asks that we search for Him, walk with Him and help others come to know about Him.
In return, everlasting life with no pain, no suffering or even death.
By throwing God out along with the WT Society, you are throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water.
And who wants to do THAT? -
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Vinny
Dear Infamous,
good luck with your battle. lore, i suggest you let it end too... these guys are jerks..
i try to say that they have no proof either, they try to make me feel stupid... your responces just show me how close minded you guys are... i am not the stupid one
the infamous one