IM BACK.
There IS also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. Court cases have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Today's technology allows even trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively.
Likewise there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible.
The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
Posts by Vinny
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Vinny
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Vinny
Changed my mind.
Folks, whoever is interested, just BOOKMARK THIS THREAD. I will be back to reply to each and every poster on this thread, in the order they posted.
I have read all replies. Each one is EASY (TOO EASY ACTUALLY) to take care of just like all of the ones before have been. No exceptions. I just do not have the time nor desire to reply to 15 or more in one single day any longer, just like yesterday on three different threads.
I will get to each one of them when I have the TIME and feel like it.
This way I can truly ENJOY the processs. Just like I always do. Just not 15 or more in a day. This will be done on my terms from here on out.
Next up:
Little Toe, then Sirona, littlepoppers and on from there in the order of post. Maybe this week, maybe next... but it will happen in detail.
vinny -
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Vinny
Encore return TO SPANK ABADDON:
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Atheists, Why the Anger?
by XJW4EVR inok, so you deny the existence of a god, or you lack belief in a god.
my question why do you get so angry over a mythical being?
no one gets as upset over the tooth fairy, santa claus or the easter bunny, as i have seen some of the atheists on this board get over the slightest mention of god.
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Lore says:..."Cool, I'm looking forward too it. Just FYI I never hold grudges. For me, a debate is just a debate. I agree with the taking our time thing too. This Wednesday I have to finish my senior project. And I'll be working on that for the next three days. So I'll be severely limiting the time I spend here.
***** Fair enough. I will be wanting to start with Micah 5:2, which reads:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
Written: sometime between 750-686 BC. Fulfilled: 5 BC
Micah 5:2 reveals that Bethlehem would be the birthplace of the Messiah.
For Christians, the prophecy is very powerful in a very simple way. It eliminates all other cities and towns throughout the world as a place in which the Messiah could be born. It narrows the possibilities to one tiny village just south of Jerusalem.
And throughout the span of the past 27 centuries, from the days of the prophet Micah up through the present time, Bethlehem is credited as being the birthplace for only one person who is widely known throughout the world. And that person is Jesus Christ. The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke list Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus. Matthew 2:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus as the fulfillment of Micah's prophecy.
Peace to you and yours,
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END OF THE ROAD:
****** This is a joke, right?
My rejection of atheism has everything to do with all things coming together by merely fat chances and luck. No way that can ever happen. Sorry. Even science cannot make simplest of things living from dead matter. Nada.
"Intelligent design", which the earth, and universe is abundantly filled with, very simply requires "intelligence", as well as "a designer". This is a simple and yet well accepted principle throughout all humankind wherever you go. When one sees evidence of intelligent design", one naturally assumes, rightfully so, that there is a designer. It can be a house; obviously that house was designed and built by SOMEBODY. It can be a thermometer, a computer a Red Corvette, a painting, deck of cards or anything else. None of these things just happened by themselves, did they?
There are many other possible reasons why he allows the problems to exist today. Helps us develop greater appreciation for life and health and even for God. Develops endurance, faith and other positive qualities. He is allowing man to govern himself for all to see the results firsthand. Humans are moved to think spiritually, to look for an answer to these issues when faced with these issues. Prepares us for something better. Draws communities and individuals together. But regardless of exactly why he does allow these problems to exist, there is sound reason to believe his promises that soon ALL of these plagues will be REMOVED once and for all by God himself. Those words are repeated over and over again in the bible. So even if I did not know exactly WHY he allows the miserable parts of life to exist, I can be comforted that it will soon be GONE. That is something I believe in and believe in with great confidence. It is a worthy hope in my mind. And it sure beats anything else I've heard up to this point, on this board, or in my life.
There have been no arguments explaining just how life arises from nothing. How complex things can be the result of blind chance without any intelligence involved. NONE. Just read the thread all the way through. In fact read all the reads I have been on over the last two months.
Atheists will sure have lots of silly arguments to go with their even more foolish and silly beliefs.
But I am done for now. It is time to put down the silly atheist debates and get back to work and family. I have heard all of the arguments. NOTHING is even close to being reasonable. There are so few answers anywhere. They have been thoroughly trounced and buried by their own beliefs in my opinion.
I have asked atheists for answers on many threads. But there are NONE. How does life originate from non-life all on its own? -
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(sorry looseend, you were next up, but hilary's laughable post of non-content beat you out!) I will try to get to yours tonight. If not, then sometime during the week. Though I have a BUSY workweek planned.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
So in conclusion, I believe God had no need for a designer because he had no beginning. Time is his own creation, so he is not subject to it.
Please tell those following this thread just how these very complicated systems in the universe and the earth, along with all life forms upon the earth ORIGINATED. Just how did they START? If Science cannot create life, from non-living matter, in a controlled, scientific environment, nor give life BACK to a dead person or animal (though having all the parts needed right in front of them), then how could all these very things come to exist without ANY intellectual force behind them at all? Just FELL into place?
BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH
Sure, there is a red corvette just sitting in North Dakota somewhere too..
ONCE AGAIN.
Vinny, Are you serious?....lol Do you actually think that you have come anywhere NEAR to answering this question? Let me show you just how ridiculous your 'answer' to the question of 'God's' morality. Where did God get His Power? Simple, He didn't get it from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD IT. Nothing difficult about that at all.
No, he did not always have it. Prove my statement incorrect.
Who made God? Simple, nobody and no thing made God; HE'S ALWAYS EXISTED. Nothing difficult about that at all
No, he has not always existed. Prove my statement incorrect.
I am beginning to think that you are actually pulling our legs merely to get attention. I cannot believe that anyone who presents themselves as an expert on this subject could lack critical thinking skills to the degree that you display above."
You tell us, "O great dismantler of nothing", what other conclusion do YOU come up with. Where did God get His power in YOUR opinion? PROVE ME WRONG.
.....................................still looking
You have not answered my questions at all.
Hilary,please show us ANY ARGUMENTS from you, much less where you trounced anybody or anything. Hilary atheists teachings have been TROUNCED THOROUGHLY.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Hilary, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Hilary, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Hilary, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?
4- Hilary, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Hilary, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
"You may view this as a 'cop out' on my part, that is your perogative" (yes we DID)....
Name calling, no arguments, thinking they are so intellectual when they are in actuality just BLOWING SMOKE. -
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Poppers says:..."LittleToe, I've already learned to skip most of what Vinny writes in his posts."
**** Smart man. Otherwise, you would be stuck in the mud with the facts once you found out about them. You would realize that you have no answers to my many posted questions, and that all things arising from nothing, with no guiding force is flat out stupid and impossible. So just avoid those posts altogether and you can feel good about your atheism. Kind of sounds like the JW's. "Don't read anything critical". Great approach to life there Poppers.
Lets see if can some-up your explanation, for clarity:
1: Everything which had a beginning has a cause to that beginning
2:The universe had a beginning, therefore it must of had a cause
3:You take the words of the bible to be true and inerrant, and the final word against any conflicting evidence
4:The bible says God created the universe
5:The bible says God had no beginning
Before I discuss these points, I'd like to know if I understand you correctly.
steve
First of all, take the bible off the table for a moment. Without the bible at all, I would still be fully, 100 percent convinced that life, the earth and entire universe are the result of an Intelligent Designer, A Supreme Being, Creator or God if you will. The complexities and order the things surrounding us along with an abundance of harmony throughout cannot just happen by some fortuitous stroke of luck again and again.
You atheists can have your Big Bang, Abiogenesis, Evolutionary theories/hypothesis without any guiding force behind these processes then. I have no interest in what I have heard from any atheists so far on ANY of the threads. It's just so flat out illogical. All things from nothing? Crazy!
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Hilary has no answers to my question and no arguments to rebuttle my points. But plenty of whining/crying and promises to leave the thread and cop outs. But then he comes back and still offers no answers or arguments and whines some more. Why not contribute something of substance Hilary? Can you do that?
So hilary, do you believe all things, the universe, earth, life upon the earth arose from NOTHING AT ALL? A big ole BANG, right into an earth with many amazing, harmonious and complex systems with atmosphere, water cycles, microbial, spinning and roataing at just the right speeds for life, all without any guiding hand of intellect?
That through this big ole BANG some primordial soup-like conditions resulted allowing some process where life can arise from lifeless? Where we have polymers to little fishes, to human brains and beyond?
Then if you believe THIS, then you my friend are the proud wearer of a red vette on your forehead; complete with pain job, door handles, fine tuned engine, gas and keys.
Go ahead put up or stop whining.
Yes I do beleive the bible is inspired of God. But I do leave slight room for the posssibility it is not. There is NO CHANCE that all things arriving from nothing all by themselves into amazing and complex things can ever happen. ZERO chance of that. But with the bible, I am quite convinced it is og God, though not 100 percent.
Here are some reasons why I do believe it probably is of God Himself:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
What is the significance of Josephus' references to Jesus? Josephus provides valuable, independent confirmation of the existence, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Leading scholar Luke T. Johnson offers the following opinion:
Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus' writing.
(Luke T. Johnson, The Real Jesus, pages 113-14).
We have therefore very good reason for believing that Josephus did make reference to Jesus, bearing witness to (a) His date, (b) His reputation as a wonder-worker, (c) His being the brother of James, (d) His crucifixion under Pilate at the information of Jewish rulers, (e) His messianic claim, (f) His being the founder of the tribe of Christians, and probably, (g) the belief in His rising from the dead.
(F.F. Bruce, op. cit., page 112).
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/mq12.html
Jewish authors recognize the miraculous character of some of Jesus' works.
1. Josephus.
Josephus is the earliest witness we have to the miracle-working of Jesus.
"The reconstructed neutral Testimonium also provides evidence about the ministry of Jesus. Josephus calls Jesus 'a wise man.' Note that this characterization is directly linked first to Jesus' miracles, then to his teachings. "He was a worker of amazing deeds" is an explicit characterization of Jesus' ministry as a miracle-worker, with stress on the effect those deeds had on others ("amazing"). Again, there is no detail; what kind of miracles Jesus worked, Josephus does not say. "
6. Hierocles wrote a piece on Apollonius and made several references to Jesus' miracles:
Interestingly enough he does not deny the reality of the miracles…Julian does not question the reality of the miracles, but asserts that they were ineffective in changing his audience…Julian's statement about the 'Miracle working and fabrication of the gospels' indicates that he could question the veracity of the gospel narratives, but in general he does not seem to question the belief that Jesus performed miracles.
Josephus affirms that Jesus worked miracles.
Early hostile Jewish tradition--in Justin and the Rabbinics--manifest the memory that Jesus did works of a miraculous nature.
The hostile Graeco-Roman writers [Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, Julian] accept that some of Jesus' miraculous works actually occurred.
There are two strands of independent, extra-biblical tradition that support the historicity of one specific NT miracle: The Feeding of the 5000.
The general trends and patterns in post-Jesus G-R literature and popular belief are easily explained (and perhaps 'best explained' or 'only explained') by the widespread acceptance by the Roman Empire that a real human in recent history (Jesus) had actually performed credible, 'sane', and non-bizarre miracles.
There ARE indications from extra-biblical sources which suggest that (some of) the miracle stories reflect actual historical events.
Even those who rejected Him acknowledged that He had unusual powers. Rather than deny Jesus' miracles, His enemies accounted for them by saying that He did them with the aid of the devil (Matt. 12:24).
Many books outside of the bible (Quran, Hippocrates, Apocrypha books etc.) have detailed descriptions of Jesus as well.
Cornelius Tacitus:
Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.
Lucian of Samosata:
Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.
Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].
Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.
Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.
Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!
The four Gospels:
The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously.
Bible prophecies are an atheists NIGHTMARE, Here are just some fulfilled prophecies.
1. Born of the seed of woman
Gen 3:15
Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham
Gen 22:18
Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac
Gen 21:12
Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob
Num 24:17
Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David
Jer 23:5
Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10
Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse
Isa 11:1
Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem
Mic 5:2
Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children
Jer 31:15
Mt 2:16-18
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
11. He pre-existed creation
Mic 5:2
1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord
Ps 110:1
Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet
Deut 18:18-19
Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest
Ps 110:4
Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge
Isa 33:22
Jn 5:22-23
17. King
Ps 2:6
Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit
Isa 11:2
Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God
Ps 69:9
Jn 2:15-17
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled:
20. Preceded by a messenger
Isa 40:3
Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee
Isa 9:1-2
Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles
Isa 35:5-6
Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables
Ps 78:1-4
Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple
Mal 3:1
Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey
Zech 9:9
Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews
Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22
1 Pet 2:6-8
27. Light to Gentiles
Isa 49:6
Acts 13:46-48
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled:
28. Betrayed by a friend
Ps 41:9
Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zech 11:12
Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples
Zech 13:7
Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses
Ps 35:11+20-21
Mt 26:59-61
34. Silent before accusers
Isa 53:7
Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised
Isa 53:4-6
1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon
Isa 50:6
Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked
Ps 22:6-8
Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross
Ps 109:24-25
Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
39. Hands and feet pierced
Ps 22:16
Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves
Isa 53:12
Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies
Isa 53:12
Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people
Isa 53:3
Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause
Ps 69:4
Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof
Ps 38:11
Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads
Ps 22:7;109:25
Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him
Ps 22:17
Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided and gambled for
Ps 22:18
Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty
Ps 22:15
Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him
Ps 69:21
Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry
Ps 22:1
Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God
Ps 31:5
Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken
Ps 34:20
Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken
Ps 69:20;22:14
Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced
Zech 12:10
Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land
Amos 8:9
Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb
Isa 53:9
Mt 27:57-60
57. Raised from the dead
Ps 16:8-11
Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God
Ps 2:7
Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to God
Ps 68:18
Eph 2:8-10
60. Seated beside God
Ps 110:1
Heb 1:3+13
In particular, I always appreciated this one: The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Bible passage: Micah 5:2
Written: sometime between 750-686 BC. Fulfilled: 5 BC
In Micah 5:2, there is the prophecy that reveals that Bethlehem would be the birthplace of the Messiah.
For Christians, the prophecy is very powerful in a very simple way. It eliminates all other cities and towns throughout the world as a place in which the Messiah could be born. It narrows the possibilities to one tiny village just south of Jerusalem.
And throughout the span of the past 27 centuries, from the days of the prophet Micah up through the present time, Bethlehem is credited as being the birthplace for only one person who is widely known throughout the world. And that person is Jesus Christ.
The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke list Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus. Matthew 2:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus as the fulfillment of Micah's prophecy.
You see to many it is an old book, and I can respect that. But to myself and many, many others, it is much, much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains.
Yet even WITHOUT THE BIBLE, the idea that all of these amazingly complex features simply came to exist on their very own, without any help from a higher Intellect is just not acceptable, believable or even POSSIBLE to me. Every design has a designer. Universally proven as fact. Yet somehow you want to throw that out the window because you don't believe in God and you are adamant that such a God just could not exist. At least agnostics open the door for the possibility and even believe it is probable. You say NO WAY. That EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from sosme PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire, all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER. That the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time. And that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond? Simply Impossible. -
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Vinny
Little Toe, I fully hear where you are coming from. But when atheists call you every name in the book, you tend to reach for things like baseball bats rather than just using the keyboard only.
I am afraid most people seem to forget all those remarks from the atheists. Probably more than you know.
But I will try the softer gentler approach with prophecies and Lore next.
Thanks,
vinny -
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Atheists, Why the Anger?
by XJW4EVR inok, so you deny the existence of a god, or you lack belief in a god.
my question why do you get so angry over a mythical being?
no one gets as upset over the tooth fairy, santa claus or the easter bunny, as i have seen some of the atheists on this board get over the slightest mention of god.
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Vinny
Now Lore, I have answered all of your questions and silly manifestos on many threads. Just read the above, if you might forget.
Piece by piece they have ben picked apart and you and atheists have been buried so far that back hoes and shovels have no chance of finding you.
Maybe earthquakes can unearth you sometime in the future. But otherwise, aside from major earthquakes, you are so buried no hope for you being found. Atheists beliefs that all things from nothing by blind chances and lots o luck is really that bad.
The prophecy thing is the easist of all. I have just been busy with other replies. You have received more than your fair share by the way. But I like burying you for some reason more than most others. I think you have some spunk.
You have thick skin too. I never see you cry and run. You always get trounced and just want more. I can admire that. Many atheists get trounced, call names, other bad words and then run home.
You never do that.
I give you a tip of the hat for taking your trouncings like a man.
I will definietely do the prophecy thing with you, one at a time like you asked. I will even try to be super nice along the way. Because I have done this atheist thing many times, always with teh same results (bad news for atheists) I want to start "prophecies" on a new thread. But I want to keep it to just that, bible prophecy and not more atheists getting trounced. This way, I will not get sidetracked by having to get the paddle out so many times to spank atheists beliefs so many times.
We can really look at prophecies and fulfillments this way with less distractions.
A couple more comments and I will wrap up the atheists today and start a new thread for prophecies this week.
But I wll also take my time with the new one. No need to do this every day, all day. Many other things get left behind whenever I have my firld days with atheists.
Perry can have atheists this week.
He likes having fun with atheists too...
Talk soon.
Aloha,
Vinny