Posts by Mondo1

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

Do you see how you jump in quoting Hebrews 1:3?

He - Jesus

His - The Father

He - Jesus

His - Jesus or the Father?

You say the final his is Jesus, but if we follow what is being spoken of in the context, AUTOU would continue to be the Father, not the Son.

If he was created with an ability or power, that power still originated with God, for God gave that to him, so God is still the source of it, is he not?

This is not the only text though. Let us go back to John 5:30, where he plainly says, "I do nothing of myself." In other words, in and of himself, Jesus does nothing. How then does he do what he does? By God working through him, and thus he making use of God's power. Consider Jesus' miracles. We speak of him doing this or him doing that, but was he acting of himself, using his own power? According to Acts, it was God who performed them in him. So it would have been the Father's power.

With that said, I would certainly grant your position with Jesus as a created being as far as he was created with the power and ability, but at the end of the day, I still see that being sourced in the Father as his creator.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

And to answer your question... "the form of God," naturally.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

It is the same thought, just a further articulation of it. When I say no substance came down, I mean that, for in heaven Jesus existed as spirit. When he came down to earth, he "became flesh" and so that substance of spirit that he existed in was somehow not a part of him anymore. How it was not a part of him I couldn't say for sure. Maybe it was just gone, maybe it changed to something else. Whatever happen, that spirit was no longer there. He was now flesh.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

Kenneson,

I would mostly agree with you. The word did not simply "take flesh" though, John 1:14 says the word "became flesh." So yes, the Word did change, because the Word became something that it was not.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

The Bible never articulates the mind as something that lives on after death. In fact, it teaches exactly the opposite of that. As for the spirit body that he had, likely it in itself changed so that it was no longer what it was, but it became wholly flesh. That is speculative though, for again, the Bible doesn't say.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

DD,

My statement was in regard to Jesus' existence in heaven. Jesus did not exist in heaven as flesh.

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

While he claimed ( while on earth ) to do nothing of his own initiative, at what point does he ever state that he borrows the Father's power?

I beleive Hebrews 1:2 articulates this quite clearly, stating that Jesus upholds all things by the word of his (the Father's) power. (follow back in the context.. his glory (the Father's) and his being (the Father's)). Further, as a created being, anything Jesus had in terms of power would have to be sourced in the Father, for there is no power than does not originate with God in some way.

Aside from that you already accepted that the Word made all things, so surely Isa.44:24 contradicts that if you believe that Isaiah is only refering to the Father?

I fail to see how such is true. Hebrews 1:1-2 demands that it be a reference to the Father though.

I'm not particularly trying to be controversial, here. I'm just trying to find some consistency in your statements, but thusfar it eludes me. Please be assured that it isn't from a lack of knowledge of the WTS position and the frame of words you are using, as I was an Elder for years. It's simply because I no longer find internal consistency in the WTS theology. It has more holes in it than a sieve.

Hopefully you can see by now that I am not one to hold to something because the WT says it. In fact, I disagree with them on a number of details in these things.

I'll grant you that the Trinity doctrine isn't without it's issues, but IMHO it makes more sense of more of the texts. But even stepping back from that, there are no holes at all in the simple acceptance of the deity of Christ ( with or without the Trinity doctrine ), especially if you apply the name YHWH to him and assume that he grew up.

Please do not misunderstand. I fully accept the deity of Christ. I believe this is spelled out in several places, such as Colossians 2:9. I simply recognize that his deity does not originate in himself as the Almighty God, but he has been given it by the Father. (Col. 1:19)

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

Kenneson,

We are not told what happened to it. We are told he became something different, which was flesh. We don't need to know how it happened, we only need to know that it did happen, and John 1:14 tells us that it did, but not how it did.

239

Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider in

i have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx.

...with mondo1, about what the text in revelation 1.17 means.

i don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and revelation, and jesus` status in this text.

Mondo1

Well the word soul is sometimes used to refer to the mind, so in a sense, it is the soul, but it is not some immaterial thing that departs from the body to live on.

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

Mondo1

You rather hit the nail on the head. Jesus was more than these things, and yet all were God's creation, and so if he could make use of these lesser things, he could certainly make use of Jesus, a greater creation.