Revelation 1.17 Jesus divinity? Or just "the first" raised from the dead"?

by Hellrider 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Hellrider

  I have been having an argument in this thread, which originally was about the trinity (oh no, not again...):

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/121719/1.ashx

  ...with Mondo1, about what the text in Revelation 1.17 means. I don`t want this thread to turn into another trinity-thread, let`s just keep it to the phrase "the first and the last", and Revelation, and Jesus` status in this text. The passage in Rev 1.17 reads:

  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, 18 and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

  The argument raised by Mondo, and from this jw-link: http://www.scripturaltruths.com/jesus/firstlast/

  ...is that this phrase, "The first and the last", which is a title exclusively given to God in the OT, Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12, and repeated in Revelation 22. 12-13, which is also (most probably) God (the Father) speaking. But, in Rev.1.17 it is Jesus uttering these words, "the first and the last". Trinitarians therefore claim that this means that Jesus is also (part of) God. The anti-trinitarians (such as jws) deny this, and an attempted explanation of Jesus`use of the expression is given in the link above ("scripturaltruths"). The basic claim of the jws here (I believe that "scripturaltruths is a jw-site) is that the phrase following the "I am the first and the last", "...and the Living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore...", nullifies the claim of divinity in the preceding expression! I have argued against this, by trying to show that claiming that the expression (as a whole) rests on a jw-premiss of Jesus` mortality: That the meaning of the expression "the first and the last" is one that involves eternal existence (outside of time), whereas Jesus Christ, in the jw-view, was never one in eternal existence! - and that he therefore doesn`t (in the jw-view) fulfill the meaning of the expression "the first and the last", and that it is therefore they insist on this alternative explanation of his use of the phrase. So, what do all you people with Bible-knowledge think? Is Jesus, when using the expression "the first and the last" only claiming that he was the first to be raised from the dead, or do you think that when he is using this expression "the first and the last", that he is claiming divinity? (Somehow on equal terms as the Father?)
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  LittleToe

  Weren't Elijah and Elisha alleged to have resurrected folk? Jesus was reportesd of turning his hand to it occasionally, too.

  How then can he be the first in that sense?
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  Hellrider

  LT: The jw-view on that, is that the people raised by Jesus and Elijah, only were "temporarily raised", as they were brought back to earth to live on, but that they too eventually would die (again). Jesus ressurection was different, because he "conquered death" (holds the keys to Hades in his hand). Of course, the significanse of that event, lies in the fact that he (according to one of the scriptures) raised himself from the dead. If he had just been raised by the Father (like most of the passages say), his ressurection would be less significant (in my view), as it would then be more similar to the kind of events as when Elijah or Jesus raised other people (of course, not exactly the same, as he was raised into a "changed", perfect, immortal form, but still).

  But the question is still: Does the sentences in Rev 1.17 that follows after "I am the first and the last" nullify the expression "the first and the last" as a claim of divinity?!?!?!
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  Mondo1

  Hellrider,

  Now you have misrepresented the text. It is not "the sentences... that follows" that shows the sense of his being the first and the last, it is the very same sentence! It is what is included within the very same sentence. Look closely at Revelation 1:17-18 and 2:8 to see this on both occasions. If Jesus did not lable himself this way twice it would not be as significanct, but the fact that he only does it this way is.

  Mondo
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  Leolaia

  The epithet "First and the Last" (equivalent to "Alpha and Omega" which is applied to "Lord God" in 1:8 and Jesus in 21:6, and equivalent to "Beginning and End" in 21:6, both of which are introduced by the same egó eimi formula as "First and Last" in 1:17) is certainly evocative of the "First and Last" titles in Deutero-Isaiah (41:4, 44:6, 48:12) which emphatically highlight the uniqueness of God.

  The title ho zón "the one who lives" and the statement "I now live forever and ever" (zón eimi eis tous aiónas tón aiónón) are equally suggestive of deity. See especially Sirach 18:1 which refers to God as "the one who lives forever" (ho zón eis ton aióna), the references to God as "the living God" (ho theos zón, in Deuteronomy 5:26 LXX, Jeremiah 10:10 LXX, Daniel 6:27 LXX, Matthew 16:16, etc.) or "the living Father" (ho zón patér, in John 6:57), and references to God "living forever and forever" (cf. Daniel 4:34 Theodotion, 6:27 LXX, 12:7 LXX, 1 Enoch 5:1, which says theos zón ... zé eis pantas tous aiónas "the living God ... who lives forever", etc.). The phrasing thus has divine overtones throughout. In fact, the phrase "to the one who lives forever" occurs four times in Revelation with reference to God (cf. 4:9, 10, 10:6, 15:7), e.g. "He swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it" (10:6).

  The use of kai + idou "behold" to contrast Jesus' temporary death with his eternal life in 1:18 is strikingly similar to 2 Corinthians 6:9: "We die and behold we continue to live" (apothnéskontes kai idou zómen). It emphasizes the inconsequence of temporary hardship (in the case of Paul) or death (in the case of Jesus). David Aune treats the passage in 1:17-18 as a theological double entendre that puts a soteriological cast to the traditional formulae, interpreting the titles "the living one", "the one who lives forever", and "the one who is, and who was, and who is to come" (applied to God in 1:8, which derives from the epithet ho ón in Exodus 3:14 LXX) as having veiled reference to Christ's exalted role as Savior (hence, "I hold the keys to Death and Hades" in 1:18). The "was" in the "one who is and was" title would thus allude not just to God's eternity but also to Christ's death, which is parodied by the Beast ("the Beast who was, and is not, and yet will come" in 17:8, 11, who had a deathstroke healed in 13:3). The "First and Last" title may thus evoke Jesus' status as both the "firstborn from the dead" (1:5) and the "beginning of God's creation" (3:14)....both concepts are indelibly wedded together in the description of Jesus as the Lamb "slain from the creation of the world" (13:8).
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  Hellrider

  LEOLAIA! Thank you!!!!! That was awesome! This totally blew me away:

  The title ho zón "the one who lives" and the statement "I now live forever and ever" (zón eimi eis tous aiónas tón aiónón) are equally suggestive of deity. See especially Sirach 18:1 which refers to God as "the one who lives forever" (ho zón eis ton aióna), the references to God as "the living God" (ho theos zón, in Deuteronomy 5:26 LXX, Jeremiah 10:10 LXX, Daniel 6:27 LXX, Matthew 16:16, etc.) or "the living Father" (ho zón patér, in John 6:57), and references to God "living forever and forever" (cf. Daniel 4:34 Theodotion, 6:27 LXX, 12:7 LXX, 1 Enoch 5:1, which says theos zón ... zé eis pantas tous aiónas "the living God ... who lives forever", etc.). The phrasing thus has divine overtones throughout. In fact, the phrase "to the one who lives forever" occurs four times in Revelation with reference to God (cf. 4:9, 10, 10:6, 15:7), e.g.

  Things like this (the fact that Yahweh-God too is referred to as "the living one") is the kind of thing that doesn`t even come to mind, for me, and if it had, I would never have known all the details that you do! Oh oh, this was bad news for Mondo. He won`t respond to your post here, of course. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!
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  LittleToe

  HR:

  The jw-view on that, is that the people raised by Jesus and Elijah, only were "temporarily raised", as they were brought back to earth to live on, but that they too eventually would die (again).

  So would you say that the idea of millions being resurrected, only to die because of failing a post-millenial test, is a permanent or temporary resurrection?

  LT, of the "I can't believe I believed that crap" class
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  Hellrider

  Mondo1:

  Now you have misrepresented the text. It is not "the sentences... that follows" that shows the sense of his being the first and the last, it is the very same sentence!

  LoL, I have not misrepresented anything. Maybe the wording was wrong, then, so sooorry, my mistake. What you claim (and what your website-friend claims) is that the words following the expression "the first and the last" when Jesus says them, nullifies the claim for deity in "I am the first and the last", or at least changes them in a sense, so that when Jesus says it, it doesn`t mean the same as when Yahweh says it. You argument rests upon Jesus ressurection, and that the "I am the living One" etc, makes it clear that when jesus says it, it refers to his ressurection, and consequently, whether you like it or not, also to his death, as a halt in his existence (and that is why the website insists on the meaning of never-beginning, neverending and never-interrupted eternity in this expression, "the first and the last"!!!). But ok, forget the last part for now. Let`s just stick to the part I underlined (above). Leolaia showed us how this reference to "the living one" etc, also is claim of, and reference to, deity.

  And again, you yell "misssrepresentation!", just like you in the other thread yelled "strawman". Much in the same manner jws are so quick to yell "oh persecuuuution, oh the humanity, they are persecuuuuting us again oh Jehovah help us!". It`s getting old.
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  greendawn

  Jesus refers to God the Father as "my God" in the book of revelation and that as well as the preponderance of Biblical verses on the issue clearly show a state of subordination for the Son.
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  Mondo1

  hO WN is not simply a claim to deity, but as with many Trinitarian grammatical claims, the same is used for the crowd in John 12:17.

  Mondo