Blackboo, if you are willing to agree that something has always existed, why not have it be the universe? You agree that an eternal regress is nonsense, that is, that as long as the system as a whole is explained, new origins do not need to be invoked. Every day of your life the existence of the universe is confirmed by your own consciousness. However, unless you claim to be a prophet or some other individual who has directly experienced God, you simply believe (based on good or bad reasons) that God exists. There are various models for an eternal universe. For example, one can reason from the fact (one of the foundations of quantum mechanics) that empty space is not ever really "empty" in the sense that you mean when you say NOTHING (by the way, I have trouble understanding why you capitalize some of the words you do. are you replicating the intonations of your speech pattern?). Thus, over an unimaginable period of time it is reasonable to posit a quantum instability that exploded. Now the universe could follow two paths. According to one model, everything would expand to a certain point, then re-collapse, then explode outward again. However, it's also possible to imagine the material of the universe spreading out until all is cold and "empty" again. In this case, another instability could eventually occur, and the process would start again. All of this is speculative. This is theory, not science. But it should provide you with a couple of examples of "atheistic" cosmological genesis theories that don't involve absolute nothingness.
veradico
JoinedPosts by veradico
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To all those who support Evolution EXPLAIN this....
by Blackboo inthink about this and close your eyes...think about what it is to have no existence for all existence..and nothing for all existence...notice how u cannot have both at the same time lol!
that is crazy!
that means if there was nothing for all existence..then it has to remain that way..and even if some particles or energy exploded to give life to earth and the planets..it still does not make sense to believe that a explosion can design humans or animals...thats just like saying i am gonna get a another house out of a explosion!
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If you believe in Evolution then your a fool! God really is REAL!
by Blackboo inhere are some questions evolution never bring up or will evade questioning.
these are serious questions that kill all the silly beliefs about how the earth or universe got here..and here is why.
think about this for a second we would not be here if nothing for all existence did not exist.
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veradico
Will do! Your distracting me from the question of whether or not we were created has also helped me to ask, Does it matter? The author of Revelation thought so ("You are worthy...because you created"), but many of the pagans didn't. They didn't worship the divinity who created man (Prometheus, or any other philosophical or religious demiurgos). Whether a god did or didn't create us, whether (granting creation) he/she/it did so benevolently, malevolently, or apathetically, it does not follow that we would owe such a being anything.
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If you believe in Evolution then your a fool! God really is REAL!
by Blackboo inhere are some questions evolution never bring up or will evade questioning.
these are serious questions that kill all the silly beliefs about how the earth or universe got here..and here is why.
think about this for a second we would not be here if nothing for all existence did not exist.
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veradico
Ink, no worries. Your comment sent me down what has been for me a much more interesting line of thought than a debate about evolution. I'm much more interested in knowing what I am than where I came from.
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If you believe in Evolution then your a fool! God really is REAL!
by Blackboo inhere are some questions evolution never bring up or will evade questioning.
these are serious questions that kill all the silly beliefs about how the earth or universe got here..and here is why.
think about this for a second we would not be here if nothing for all existence did not exist.
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veradico
(Whoever started this evolution thread: Sorry I slightly hijacked it with my free will comment, but I want to respond to DT.)
Yes. When I look back at my thought process, I can always locate the causal chain that led up to my actions. I don't mind that they were not "free." But in the present it feels like I'm free, and, if I'm not a free moral agent, it's hard to see how I or anyone else could be held ethically responsible for anything. "Sure. Someone's body pulled a trigger on a gun and shot someone else's body, but they only did so because of a an endless causal chain leading back to the movements of the first atoms." Everything operates in certain ways in accord with its specific physical nature. Behind psychology lies biology. Biology can be reduced to chemistry. In the end, it's all particles and void. Even if randomness is a factor (i.e., the uncertainty principle), that's not freedom; it's just chaos, madness. I might redefine free will as "something caused by the dynamic collection of physical and mental properties I identify as my 'self,'" as opposed to something imposed on me by some external influence. But that's not satisfying when I realize that all the movements of the atoms of which I consist are, in a very real sense, determined by their physical nature and thus by the "laws" which emerge therefrom. -
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If you believe in Evolution then your a fool! God really is REAL!
by Blackboo inhere are some questions evolution never bring up or will evade questioning.
these are serious questions that kill all the silly beliefs about how the earth or universe got here..and here is why.
think about this for a second we would not be here if nothing for all existence did not exist.
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veradico
Evolution avoids explaining the origin of life because it is a science. Science does not deal with things that can't be tested. That's why it works. Anyone can make a religion that explains where life came from because the only limit is one's imagination. Science may start with an imagined hypothesis, but then it must be tested, challenged, overturned, replaced, tested, overturned, replaced, until the weight of supporting data makes a theory virtually unassailable, though it may not be as poetic as "In the beginning, the Word was, and the Word was with God." And still, the scientific process should assail the theory, testing every remaining aspect of it. Evolutionary biology is still a young science. Indeed, all of the sciences are still young. Thus, there are many unexplained phenomena and unanswered questions. But science will not create imaginary or fantastic answers to those questions and then rest in the comfort of faith.
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If you believe in Evolution then your a fool! God really is REAL!
by Blackboo inhere are some questions evolution never bring up or will evade questioning.
these are serious questions that kill all the silly beliefs about how the earth or universe got here..and here is why.
think about this for a second we would not be here if nothing for all existence did not exist.
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veradico
"Creation" says that stuff suddenly came into existence from nothing by God (who is non-material). To my mind, it's more silly to say that matter came from spirit (which is so different from matter and undetectable that it can never be studied or even proven to exit) than to say that matter sprang into existence from empty space and that order arose spontaneously from disorder. Real science does not say anything on the subject because such a thing cannot be tested as of yet. However, there are theories. On a quantum mechanical level, in accord with the uncertainty principle, particles do spring into and out of existence spontaneously, and order arises spontaneously. From these facts, and given enough time (more time, by the way, than any reasonable person could claim to be able to imagine), one can posit explanations of existence that do not invoke supernatural beings and realms that lie beyond our ability to discover and study. How could such beings and realms have anything to do with our world? Oil and water don't mix. How could non-matter be the explanation for matter? Also, theism and creationism do not have to be linked, nor do atheism and evolutionary biology. God could exist but have nothing to do with the origin of life. Life could have evolved under the "guidance" of God. I don't think it's fair to say "your [sic] a fool" just because someone who has sincerely wrestled with these questions has come to a conclusion that differs from your own. Whether the religions of the world are correct in their various claims about the origins of life and other scientific questions, they are, as far as I know, almost unanimous in recommending the virtue of humility. It's true that they don't encourage humility when it comes to the validity of the dogmas and the practices of the religions themselves; however, I think you would be wise to do just that. Confront the possibility that you could be wrong. Though it may be terrifying, I suspect you will be stronger for the experience. All the best, veradico.
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Mike Huckabee now admits evolution theory has validity
by worldtraveller inhttp://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=562cfb53-69a7-4fcb-9e41-6db4f4e4381a&k=51066.
interesting story from the godless north aka canada.
make sure you read the bottom part where the equator used to be in northern canada..
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veradico
As far as I can tell, the link does not say anything about Huckabee's admitting the validity of evolution, unless by you refer to Huckabee's vague belief in a guided, creative process.
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hi there! it's been a while since I've written a meaningful post
by veradico inthe lady on the phone told me that if i could get to chicago in time for a 1 pm flight i could still make it to nh that day.
if one has strong faith in ones faith, he should not fear other belief systems.
may have killed the cat; more likely .
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veradico
Thanks Voideater, Open mind, and dawg! You guys are awesome. Moshe -- I don't know. When I re-read what I wrote I think I might be the one with ADD. I only meant to say that _The Golden Compass_ is worth looking into, but it turned into an apologia for the whole story. I think I vented a lot about that movie because there's a Catholic girl in my department who just converted, and I recommended the series to her 'cause she liked C. S. Lewis' Narnia series. To be honest, I like Narnia as well; Lewis is one of my favorite authors. But whereas I find the differences between Lewis and Pullman refreshing, the Catholic girl said, "Veradico, these books are evil! I don't feel I can continue reading these, nor can I watch the movie and still consider myself a good Catholic." I told her that I don't think Pullman's real message is opposed to what is best in the Catholic tradition, especially if she were to look at the more recent feminist and liberation theologians. She's the same girl who I invited out during her first week here (no one else in the department was around, but I wanted her to get a good impression of us and the city.), and who, after she realized I'm gay because in the process of describing different places we could go I mentioned that the gay bar has good music and dancing and that I could introduce her to some of my friends there, went on to talk about how homosexuality is a sin and how she does not even feel it's right to alter her body by piercing her ears (mine are pierced.). I think she made the comment about piercings after we discussed the Catholic ban on birth control (i.e., whether it's wrong to interfere with "nature" in that way). She's a nice person; she's always friendly to me, but feeling judged is tiresome.
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hi there! it's been a while since I've written a meaningful post
by veradico inthe lady on the phone told me that if i could get to chicago in time for a 1 pm flight i could still make it to nh that day.
if one has strong faith in ones faith, he should not fear other belief systems.
may have killed the cat; more likely .
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veradico
Ah! The Cliff Notes version: I had trouble getting to NH. I met my cousin on Facebook, and he turned out to be gay. I like The Golden Compass. I had a strange conversation with a Witness. And my aunt disowned me.
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hi there! it's been a while since I've written a meaningful post
by veradico inthe lady on the phone told me that if i could get to chicago in time for a 1 pm flight i could still make it to nh that day.
if one has strong faith in ones faith, he should not fear other belief systems.
may have killed the cat; more likely .
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veradico
Abandoned -- I figured that was what you meant. :-)