Quandry,
I look forward to your continued comments. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Posts by zarco
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356Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
AuldSoul,
You said “I agree, freedom would have to include searching for truth without retribution. I didn't have that freedom. I have suffered retribution for seeking truth”.
I am truly sorry that you have suffered retribution. You have proven by your comments that you seek what is right not your own agenda and to be punished for that is awful.
But I think freedom is more than that. Freedom would have to include helping others search for truth without fear of retribution or experiencing retribution, as well, would it not? Freedom would also be known by great freeness of speech, would it not?
Freedom does include great freeness of speech. But when one decides - and we all decide whether to belong to an organization or not - that freeness is reduced somewhat by the ability/will of the organization to change. For instance one could not freely yell out “fire” in a crowded building unless there really was a fire. One could yell out such information in a home or another forum where the size of the audience would determine the appropriateness of such a comment. If you yelled fire in my house I could quickly determine the truth of such freeness of speech. If you yelled the same words in a dark crowded concert hall I may not be able to determine the truth of your words because of the crowd or other.
In other words freedom of speech should be correlated to the environment in which one expresses such speech. In the organization, freedom of speech is allowed but only through limited channels. The downside is not all speech is heard, the upside is that if such speech is heard then the influence of such speech can affect 6 million people. In contrast this board allows complete freedom of speech but the potential influence of such speech is limited to those who hear and trust it.
What retribution I have suffered I cannot possibly suffer again, unless I first subject myself again to that which initially sought to restrain my freeness of speech. I can truly compare, having had experiential knowledge of both circumstances, and state with certainty: I now have great freeness of speech, I now have freedom to seek truth; I did not previously have great freeness of speech and did not have freedom to seek truth.
Now you have freedom of speech and freedom to seek truth and you have people within the organization which sought to restrain your speech listening to you. Do you, then, stand for freedom and stand opposed to that which limits freedom?I stand for freedom of ideas and expression and I understand that such freedom of expression can at times can be restricted to allow the testing of the expression before allowing the vulnerable to hear and react to it.
Zarco
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
Auld Soul,
You said "I understand your intent, but isn't it possible to be both for something good, helpful, and healthy and opposed to things that are bad, retarding, and damaging? I have a difficult time getting Jesus positive message from Matthew 23, for instance. He was plainly opposed to the oppressive bureaucracy of the Pharisees that stood between the people and God".
Thanks for your clarification. Yes one can be opposed to something. But first one must know what core principles one stands for. After that any opposition to such principles can be opposed. I agree with your point – thanks.
You said, "I will continue to follow in his footsteps to the best of my ability, as I trust you will do to the best of yours. I have no quarrel with you for your choices, but I do hope you know your choice is not the only right one".
I agree with the sentiments expressed in your closing. I do know that my choice may not be the right one – that is why I am here.
Zarco -
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Is anyone familiar with how the attorneys are compensated at Brooklyn?
by restrangled ini'm curious because after working for attorneys i know how they bill.
by the 10 minute increment, per document etc.. i can't believe they would have enough qualified attorneys volunteering time and labor to cover every aspect of their various legal problems.
is this perhaps where all the money is going?.
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zarco
She said that “the WTS pays a big retainer to keep the big law firms on call”. I said that comment is false. I sent her a PM stating why I know that statement is false. Your experience is not proof the WTBS pays big retainers to the big law firms, rather it proof of what you have experienced. You ask and state - “you believe that the WTS would use an in house on a complex case or if not then are they exempt from retainers? I think not!”. In the most recent case before the Supreme Court of the United States the WTS used an in house attorney who discussed the daily text before opening arguments rather than review his case.
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
Quandry,
If you can get a November KM the insert discusses blood fractions. A direct quote " Likewise, no one should criticize another Christain's decisions. In these matters each one will carry his own load". The decisions pertain to the choices regarding which fractions a JW may take. So yes it will become a conscience matter or as you state a "dont ask dont tell policy".
That said - it is really hard to grapple with the many thousands who died due to their adherance to past policy. I hope and pray that if their exists the God whom I believe exists that he will make such matter right.... more than right
zarco
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Is anyone familiar with how the attorneys are compensated at Brooklyn?
by restrangled ini'm curious because after working for attorneys i know how they bill.
by the 10 minute increment, per document etc.. i can't believe they would have enough qualified attorneys volunteering time and labor to cover every aspect of their various legal problems.
is this perhaps where all the money is going?.
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zarco
Your statment is false. The attorneys at Bethel serve as do all others at Bethel with the same monthly stipend. At times outside lawyers are used but the payment to them is negotiated in advance. Why do you state what you stated? If you have eveidence please produce it.
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
Gill, no worries regarding your point, I did not stop posting because of an offense taken to your comments. It bothered me that others would/could be punished for posting on such a site and that I am not. The injustice of such a situation bugged me. Freedom is the search for truth without retribution. I am not so sure that you have it, I am not so sure that I have it either, maybe we will find it together. But being against something is not the answer, being for something at least is a common place to start. zarco
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
Willyloman,
The problem is, not one dub in 1,000 knows what the hell the WTS' current position is on blood. The vast majority, when facing surgery and after the new rules are explained to them by their friendly, local HLC member, will gladly go along with the more liberal allowances. But a lot of dubs still think "you can't take blood, period" and that's the hill they are willing to die on.
All know now. The Kingdom Ministry explains clearly that all fractions are allowed, even hemoglobin - imagine that. Platelet gels are also allowed for wound healing although not stated in the KM
However, the fact that the blood issue has been allowed to die a quiet death with no attending publicity does not exonerate the WTS from bloodguilt. They knew this was quackery but they defended it while at the same time feverishly working behind the scenes to create one exception after another until the original policy was unrecognizable.
Whether bloodguilt is allocated to the FDS I do not know. But certainly many died by their loyalty to what they thought was right. A God who hates injustice will correct matters.
Zarco is undergoing a crisis of conscience here, in part because he is forced to support or at least explain away doctrines and teachings he knows are unconscionable.
No crisis of conscience here. As I stated before I have not disfellowshipped anyone. I strive to help all whom I come in contact with and to live by time tested principles. Are you still an Australian after the horrible atrocities against the aborigines? Or an American after violations of moral law?
Zarco -
356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
Gill - you are right I overstepped my bounds. For the record I have never disfellowshipped anyone. I am just a seeker of truth. I have appreciated the debate and candor and good from all the comments. Thanks to all. I do not treat you as if you are disfellowshipped, the power of your ideas is just as important as mine. I will stop posting on the board, as you are right others probably have been DFed for doing so and me doing so without retribution may cause harm to others.
Keep up what all of you are doing. It is wonderful to debate and exchange ideas. We can all learn from one another.
cya
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356
Say You're a Bethelite & Monitoring JWD - How Would You Feel About THESE??
by Seeker4 ini'm talking about the new posters, like kitten whiskers, who started posting today (hope this works: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/120817/1.ashx).
and it seems like we're getting a few like this nearly every day.
people who were raised jws, really worry that they are doing the right thing in leaving, yet who have been made to feel not good enough by the wts, who felt they never measured up, who struggled with it, but came to realize that what they'd been brought up to believe was just not the truth.. the same stories are told over and over again, and they come from sincere, good people - not whiny, fault-finding apostates like the rest of us riffraff around here!
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zarco
AlanF,
I realize it is a little unfair to ask a question without stating my position but I have a gathering to attend in a few minutes.
This is a very bad example. A growing number of physicists put little stock in string theory, as shown by a review of two critical books in the September, 2006 issue of Scientific American ( http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000713DC-8161-14E3-BAEC83414B7F0000&sc=I100322 ). String theory is a mathematical attempt to describe the physics underlying the universe, and as such it is valid only to the extent to which it can be experimentally verified. So far, it has not been. This is very different from the mathematics underlying theories like quantum mechanics, relativity, the big bang, etc.
But this wasn't such a bad example 5 to 8 years ago. It was the a supported explaination of truth. If we are going to examine the organization by what they said and what is true, shouldn't we examine science using the same standards?