dungbeetle

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Posts by dungbeetle

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  16

  Need help: JW and Crystal Night 1938

  by Atreyu in

  1. social
  2. current

  at june 24, the former editor of "bergens tidende", the main newspaper of bergen, norway, wrote an article about jw versus nazi-germany.

  obviously, he has recently seen one of the videos from wts about the issue.

  the article stated that jw was the only church that raised their voice in protest against the "crystal night" in 1938, when the nazis ravaged jewish synagoges, shops and homes and sent thousands of jews to consentration camps.

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  dungbeetle

  A couple of things I want to make clear here...

  I had this long (for him) conversation with Kent of Watchtower Observer, and I mentioned that I doubt that I would have done any better under those circumstances. Would I have spoken up on behalf of gays, and Jews, and Gypsies? I doubt it; I likely would have convinced myself that it was all temporary and would go away or some such thng. Kent replied that "That's not the point." We decided that by lying and misrepresenting what the JW's really did during those times is an insult to otherwise brave people. In addition, by lying about the Witnesses today, it subjects them to so much more criticism. And Watchtower does all this to save itself. Watchtower/Rutherford betrayed the German Witnesses then and Watchtower betrays them today.

  And another thing; I don't doubt for one moment that JW's helped their neighbors in any number of ways. The literature quoted here is American JW's, this literature represents only a tiny fraction of world-wide JW's and doesn't represent the German JW's AT ALL. During Sept 11, individual JW's did step forth to help some of the terrorist victims, and I don't doubt that they did it in Germany as well. In 'Facing the Lion' the writer documents some of her experiences in helping non-Witnesses in the face of danger (at least I THINK so)...I think it is odd Watchtower doesn't quote REAL examples like that.

  Things that make you go hmmm...
• 
  16

  Need help: JW and Crystal Night 1938

  by Atreyu in

  1. social
  2. current

  at june 24, the former editor of "bergens tidende", the main newspaper of bergen, norway, wrote an article about jw versus nazi-germany.

  obviously, he has recently seen one of the videos from wts about the issue.

  the article stated that jw was the only church that raised their voice in protest against the "crystal night" in 1938, when the nazis ravaged jewish synagoges, shops and homes and sent thousands of jews to consentration camps.

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  dungbeetle

  I found this in the 'proclaimers' book. pg 448:

  <On December 12, 1936, just a few months after the Gestapo had arrested thousands of the Witnesses and other interested persons in a nationwide effort to stop their work, the Witnesses themselves conducted a campaign. With lightning speed they put tens of thousands of copies of a printed resolution in mailboxes and under the doors of people throughout Germany. These protested the cruel treatment being meted out to their Christian brothers and sisters. Within an hour after the distribution began, the police were racing around trying to catch the distributors, but they laid their hands on only about a dozen in the entire country.>

  page 449

  <So, on June 20, 1937, the Witnesses who were still free distributed another message, an open letter that was unsparing in its detail about the persecution, a document that named officials and cited dates and places. Great was the consternation among the Gestapo over this exposure and over the ability of the Witnesses to achieve such a distribution.>

  and this real gem:

  <Finally, in October 1934, congregations of Jehovahs Witnesses throughout Germany sent registered letters to the government stating clearly that they had no political objectives but that they were determined to obey God as ruler.>

  bwahahahahahahahaha now go back and read what Nathan Natas said was REALLY in that letter...<gag> <choke> <puke>
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  16

  About Those Heavenly and Earthly Classes...

  by NeonMadman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  maybe this is just something that i never thought of before, and everybody else here will find it old hat.

  but i was thinking today about the jw teaching about the heavenly class (the 144,000, according to them), and the earthly class (the great crowd).

  specifically, i think that it is ironic how the watchtower actually reverses what the bible says about the location of these two classes.

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  dungbeetle

  The jews obviously believed they were going to be resurrected to earth, and Paul and Jesus and other apostles spoke of going to heaven.

  One plus one is two.

  At the risk of sounding like Larsguy/Joseph Malik, I was speaking of 2 different ABODES, not two CLASSES. I'm not trying to be semantic, I just really don't like using Watchtower terminology.

  The two-class system is Watchtower; the two abode system is biblical. Whether or not it is literal when one goes back to the original bible language, I don't know.

  I understand the concept of picking out one book of the bible and rejecting the other 65 books when discussing one topic, but I don't subsribe to that, and I don't know many people who do.

  I was EXPANDING on your topic of how Watchtower twists scripture --so they can bail themselves out of their own stupidity--not agreeing or disagreeing with you.

  Toodles

  Edited by - dungbeetle on 2 July 2002 21:13:43
• 
  16

  About Those Heavenly and Earthly Classes...

  by NeonMadman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  maybe this is just something that i never thought of before, and everybody else here will find it old hat.

  but i was thinking today about the jw teaching about the heavenly class (the 144,000, according to them), and the earthly class (the great crowd).

  specifically, i think that it is ironic how the watchtower actually reverses what the bible says about the location of these two classes.

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  dungbeetle

  Jesus made it very clear that there were two final abodes for his followers---one at least was heavenly, as he made it clear that THAT was where he was going to live and some of his followers were going with him.

  He made it clear that HE did not select who went to which class, or even what their role was in eace class.

  The pre-Jesus Jews had an earthly hope. The post-Jesus Christians had a heavenly hope.

  But Jesus made it clear, when speaking of the heavely abode, that if individuals did not wish to leave their families behind, they would not be forced to leave them behind. Paul goes on to expand on this thought, stating that the spirit would bear witness to each individual, where they would eventually reside. If someone had strong atachments to their families and did not wish to leave them (Paul seemed to have no such problem) they would not be forced to, and their spirit would bear witness within them.

  Which begs the question of Watchtower: if the palm fronds, the robes, the blood of the lamb are figurative, why is the number of 144,000 literal. Their own statement is: "the twelve tribes of Israel are the wrong twelve tribes" and yet they go on to say the number must be LITERAL!!!

  Watchtower got itself in deep doo doo when their foretold dates came around and nobody had been whisked away to heaven or anywhere else. Then along came the earhtly calss, the Jonadab-Ruth-Naomi blah blah blah class, all of course which foreshadowed Watchtower.

  Good topic.
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  21

  Celtic / Invisible & Logical Must Apologise.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  gentlemen,.

  your posts were out of order.

  you bring shame upon our country, and i feel angry with both of you.. there are certain rules that people abide by.. 1. you never insult / criticise someone's kids unless you want their parents to hate you.. 2. you don't foist your religious beliefs upon others, because, in so doing, you appear to be taking the moral highground, and this is extremely irritating.

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  dungbeetle

  Amen..you guys have too much time on your hands.

  Don't criticize things HERE ON THE BOARD that we have no contol over. There are other, non-JW related boards for that.
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  7

  DOWNLOAD BIBLES/COMMENTARIES For Free!

  by revdrjohnson in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is a link to a web site where you can entire download bibles and commentaries for free!

  douay-rheims 1899 american edition.

  hebrew names version of the world english bible.

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  dungbeetle

  thanks Rev!!!!!
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  36

  Another JW suicide

  by Mulan in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i have just learned that there was another jw suicide in western washington (south king county) last weekend.

  the man was a young adult, in good standing, married and doing well financially.

  i can't reveal more, and this one didn't hit the news either.

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  dungbeetle

  ALL population is going up.
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  16

  Need help: JW and Crystal Night 1938

  by Atreyu in

  1. social
  2. current

  at june 24, the former editor of "bergens tidende", the main newspaper of bergen, norway, wrote an article about jw versus nazi-germany.

  obviously, he has recently seen one of the videos from wts about the issue.

  the article stated that jw was the only church that raised their voice in protest against the "crystal night" in 1938, when the nazis ravaged jewish synagoges, shops and homes and sent thousands of jews to consentration camps.

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  dungbeetle

  On the 99 Watchtower cd rom, Watchtower makes no claims regarding their defense of anyone against the Germans. Here is what they do say:

  <Several panels highlighted the indoctrination of the young in the Hitler Youth and the fascination that the huge Nazi rallies in Nuremberg held for the masses. Photos called to mind Jehovahs Witnesses refusal to pledge allegiance to the fhrer and to give the Hitler salute. Other panels showed how Jehovahs Witnesses were the victims of disinformation and how, as of 1935, they distributed magazines and tracts exposing Nazi excesses.>

  Of course they did....excesses against the WATCHTOWER.

  Hm, that famous letter of 1933 gets no mention by watchtower, wonder why?

  awake! 9/8/90

  <But even in those early years, there was an ugly side to the Nazi regime. One morning in November 1938, I saw a Jewish synagogue in flames. Strangely, there were firemen standing around, but they didnt move a finger to put out the fire. That same day the main shopping mall was covered with broken glass. Jewish shops had been plundered and vandalized during what later came to be called Kristallnacht (Crystal Night). These acts had been organized by the SS as "spontaneous demonstrations" of popular protest against the Jews. Hatred of the Jews was preached everywhere.>

  The interesting thing about this Awake expereince, is that here we have a now-JW-friendly personal eyewitness, who saw or knew nothing of JW being helpful to anyone at that time. You would think by 1990 he could remember something if there was something to remember.

  AWAKE 10/8/84

  <"Historians of the Third Reich may perhaps have exaggerated the extent of the German Churches resistance to the National Socialist regime, but few have mentioned the martyrdom of the 5,911 Jehovahs Witnesses arrested by the Nazis. More than two thousand perished in concentration camps."

  After describing life at the Buchenwald camp where 2,250 Jews were prisoners, the book states that there were "300-400 Jehovahs Witnesses" there "who were particularly helpful to the Jews and even shared their bread rations with them.">
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  16

  Need help: JW and Crystal Night 1938

  by Atreyu in

  1. social
  2. current

  at june 24, the former editor of "bergens tidende", the main newspaper of bergen, norway, wrote an article about jw versus nazi-germany.

  obviously, he has recently seen one of the videos from wts about the issue.

  the article stated that jw was the only church that raised their voice in protest against the "crystal night" in 1938, when the nazis ravaged jewish synagoges, shops and homes and sent thousands of jews to consentration camps.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dungbeetle

  http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p183_Weckert.html

  things that make you go hmmmmm
• 
  16

  Need help: JW and Crystal Night 1938

  by Atreyu in

  1. social
  2. current

  at june 24, the former editor of "bergens tidende", the main newspaper of bergen, norway, wrote an article about jw versus nazi-germany.

  obviously, he has recently seen one of the videos from wts about the issue.

  the article stated that jw was the only church that raised their voice in protest against the "crystal night" in 1938, when the nazis ravaged jewish synagoges, shops and homes and sent thousands of jews to consentration camps.

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  dungbeetle

  perhaps this is what the article is referring to:

  http://www.jw-russia.org/eng/history/holocaust%20may97wrobel-E.htm

  JOHANNES WROBEL (Germany)

  How the Watchtower History Archive in Germany
  Benefits Holocaust Research

  <Researchers are aware that the history of Jehovah's Witnesses under the Nazi regime is intertwined with the Jewish experience of the Holocaust. A Jew who survived the Buchenwald camp said about the Bibelforscher: "They were very helpful to other prisoners. When the pogrom sent a massive influx of Jews to the camp on November 10, 1938, the 'Jehovah's schwein', as the guards referred to them, went round with a bread ration for the elderly and famished Jews, going without food themselves for up to four days.">

  I especially like this part:

  <Naturally we have on file much private, unpublished material from survivors, such as oral history reports, documents, and photographs. Although the Watchtower History Archive is not a public archive, Holocaust researchers and educators will greatly benefit from our work. We are pleased to answer questions and fulfill requests from Memorial Museums and researchers from all over the world, and to share the results of our research with others.>

  Yes indeed, researchers are welcome to only those parts of our research that presents us in a good light. Bwahahahahaha

  Edited by - dungbeetle on 2 July 2002 13:8:39