dungbeetle

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Posts by dungbeetle

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  46

  Jay Dubs right about 1914

  by FrightMare in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  please study this chart very, very carefully: http://www.sru.edu/depts/artsci/ges/d-3-2.htm.

  why has such an unprecedented boom in population and technology occurred during the specific time the bible points to the 'last days', 1914?

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  dungbeetle

  I don't give a rat's ass.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  31

  WTS involvement with politics/UN exaggerated?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've seen the threads on the wts' involvement with cesnur, swaggert, and the un.

  since then, i've done additional research on the internet, including accessing the un's webiste and searching for "watchtower" and "jehovah's witnesses.

  " and i am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the wts's involvement and its purpose.. in my internet research, the only connection i have seen between the wts and cesnur or the un is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

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  dungbeetle

  Of course you're missing something...

  1) For more years than I care to remember, the your 'faithful and discreet slave' has stated unequvically that the UN is 'unclean' and 'disgusting', that it is 'not to be touched'to the point where Witnesses were expected to lay down their lives rather than 'touch' it, and of course they did so. The WTBS has trumpeted these deaths loudly, as though blind unthinking obedience to 'man rather than God' is anything to be proud of.

  2) And most importantly, this information has been kept from most Jehovah's Witnesses. Some 'faith' and 'discretion'. Wonder how the surviving family members of the dead ones feel about this now.

  Thank you troubled for giving me another opportunity to publicize this info for the benefit of Jehovah's Witnesses lurkers...

  Always a pleasure.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  53

  Christians and dubs/treated same here

  by gumby in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey guys.

  i got an idea as to why there is the same bitterness by many/not all, on this board twards christians like there is to dubs.

  you feel you have found it to be a crock just as the borg is and it makes you madder than crap to see people duped a second time.

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  dungbeetle

  Posted by Gumby:

  <"I am sorry that I started this thread..."> Yeah I can just imagine that you are!!!

  <"I think all SHOULD HAVE EVIDENCE to back up what they say as far as reality to evidence is possible.">

  Why?

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  53

  Christians and dubs/treated same here

  by gumby in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey guys.

  i got an idea as to why there is the same bitterness by many/not all, on this board twards christians like there is to dubs.

  you feel you have found it to be a crock just as the borg is and it makes you madder than crap to see people duped a second time.

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  dungbeetle

  posted by rem:
  You make me laugh. You talk a lot of bluster, but when it comes down to presenting and listening to facts you run with your tail between your legs. You are not interested in facts or truth. You are only interested in defending the religion your mommy taught you. You have admitted on another tread that you are not interested in looking at pesky facts:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=12052&page=2&site=3

  Well I spent a lot of time looking at all (then) 4 pages of that thread, and I didn't see anything posted by siegswife that could reasonably be said to imply such a thing. She did say she wasn't searching anymore, but the same could be inferred from (rightly or wrongly) the postings of people such as Alanf and Kent and JanH and Farkel.

  And the point is...????

  I mean, if I missed something, I will stand (or sit or lay) corrected, but otherwise I had better things to do than look for a statement that didn't exist.

  Grrrrrrrrrrr.....

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  2

  NBC Dateline vs WTS & WTC

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the past few days i have been wondering if the wtc events will cause trouble or help the dateline show regarding the wts and child abuse.

  at first, i feared that the wtc terrorist attack would so overwhelm the news media and the hearts of america, that the jw issue with abuse would seem rather second place.

  but .... then again, the wts issue could keep the jws so glued to the tv because they think the great tributaltion is starting, that when the daeline story airs, it will catch them off guard.

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  dungbeetle

  The more the 'Society' tells their followers not to go to the internet, they more of them flock there and faster too. The more the Society tells their followers not to come on these 'apostate' boards the more they come there and faster too.

  Whatever is going on when Dateline airs, it is my fervent hope that the Society will ORDER its followers not to watch the program. The more will watch and faster too.

  Sometimes I love Jehovah's Witnesses.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  53

  Christians and dubs/treated same here

  by gumby in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey guys.

  i got an idea as to why there is the same bitterness by many/not all, on this board twards christians like there is to dubs.

  you feel you have found it to be a crock just as the borg is and it makes you madder than crap to see people duped a second time.

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  dungbeetle

  I agree with siegswife..I am in conflict with JW's because I am trying to be a Christian.

  As far as why some people get ticked at something particular they read/see...I believe some people are quarelsome and argumentative and irritable within their character structure. They may have reasons for this...nevertheless the fault is not in the post, or in its contents.

  For myself, I get ticked at something I consider an outright lie.

  And I don't like psychological terrorism, which some Christians use when they say the.. "you are going to die unless..." cult-induced drivel. Almost every atheist I ever met/talked to/ has agreed with this statement...any God if there is one, that is capable of creating this universe and all the things in it, most likely can read a mind and a heart and doesn't need someone crusading death and destruction on his behalf.

  On those occasions when 'atheists' and 'Christians' can agree on something, I think it's worth listening to.

  Just a thought.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  25

  Hi i am new

  by rolling rock in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hay all i am new and, just wanted to say hi.... and ask a question... how would i go about talking to my fokes about all the new "truths" that i have learned in the last few months?.

  .

  chad inactive jw for 9 years now.... thanks

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  dungbeetle

  Hi, welcome to the board rolling rock.

  I can attest to the fact that the sloooow way works the best. It's so tempting to want to throw a bunch of stuff at someone when you have the chance, but slow is better.

  Also, how is it that JW's and new JW's fall for all the Watchtower lies in the first place? Not the info, of course, its lies. It's the presentation. One piece at a time, little by little. One person at a time, little by little.

  Best of luck to you.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  12

  Watchtower "drama" last Sunday.

  by CornerStone in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i originaily said to myself that i was not going to post anything about last sundays "drama" at the dc because i did not want to stir up trouble.

  but after reading about the watchtowers' less than charitable attitude toward their nyc neighbors i had a change of heart.. i sat there that morning with my wife and relatives, my eyes heavy from lack of sleep, children on either side of me already in dream land.

  the drama was an old favorite; moses and korah.

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  dungbeetle

  For what it's worth, here's what I got from the drama...

  The account reads Numbers 16:32...And the earth proceeded to open its mouth and to swallow up them and their households and all humankind that belonged to Korah and all the goods.

  Now in those days Korah would have been the head of his household, and the wives and little ones would have been generally obligated to do what he said. However, what Korah was doing was against the law as God had given it to them. The people that depended on Korah, that listened to him, lost their lives because of him. God made no accounting at that time for any choices his household may have had in the matter.

  So today, we have God's law as given us through Jesus Christ. There were only two...Love your God with your whole heart,mind, and soul; and do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Simple enough. And if we disobey these commands, we are disobeying God himself. We each will be held accountable for the decisions WE make.

  God may not hear us if we complain...my parents made me do it, or the elders or the CO or 10 (or 12, or 13) angry men, or whole committees of them. If we are called to account because we went to people (some who may have been very vulnerable) and told them: God says to refuse blood, God says not to do alternative service, God says to disfellowship and shun, God says harbor child molesters from the authorities---and the Bible says no such d--n thing, why shouldn't we be called to account just like Korah and his family? And especially if that person comes to harm.

  This kind of reasoning was a big part of what led to my separating myself from many of the practices of Jehovah's Witnesses. I suggest more jehovah's Witnesses do the same. The life you save may be your own.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  dungbeetle

  I guess she means this one.

  * http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11216&page=5&site=3

  Nothing like a good old-fashioned guilt trip to make us feel like we are running somebody off. How cult-minded of such a person. When facts and figures, names dates and places are in short supply, there's always good old fashioned name-calling.

  Happy? what the h--l does happiness have to do with anything? Was Jesus HAPPY when he threw the money changers out of the temple?

  And I don't know about happiness, but my children won't be raped by elders and then disfellowshipped for it. My daughter won't be raped. refuse to scream, and then be disfellowshipped for it. My children won't accept a medically necessary blood transfusion, and be disfellowshipped for it (oh wait it's DA now). And none of my family will have to go calling on people at their homes side by side with a convicted child molester who hasn't even finished their criminal case yet. My son isn't going to go to prison because he isn't able to do alternative service. And we can all have oral sex with our spouses adn not ge disfellowshipped.

  Happiness? I don't sit in KH and listen to "99.9% or more of the world is gonna die die die and be affected by it, since it's cult-induced drivel. I could go on and on and on.

  As far as not finding any support here, I can sit here right now and count 10 Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing in their congreagations who post here and most of them occasionally go into chat. If a Jehovah's Witness can't come here to this board and connect with other Jehovah's Witnesses, then the fault ain't with this board or anyone on it.

  If someone comes to this board, and does not feel shock and pain over things like molestation, rape, exploitation, lying, shunning and a higher body count than the People's Temple...no you aren't going to find 'comfort and support' here.

  GET DOWN OFF THE CROSS SOMEBODY NEEDS THE WOOD.

  God is Not going to kill Seigfreid and Roy...

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
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  6

  Watchtower Study Sept 10-16

  by dungbeetle in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  make your advancement manifest.

  ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, that your advancement may be manifest to all persons.

  1 timothy 4:15. picture in your mind your favorite fruitxa peach, a pear, a mango, or something else.

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  dungbeetle

  Make Your Advancement Manifest

  ¡§Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, that your advancement may be manifest to all persons.¡¨ 1 Timothy 4:15

  Picture in your mind your favorite fruit¡Xa peach, a pear, a mango, or something else. Can you tell when it¡¦s ripe or ready to eat? Most certainly. Its aroma, color, and feel all tell you that a mouth-watering experience awaits you. The moment you get a piece of it into your mouth, you may let out a sigh. What succulence! What sweetness! It gives you a great deal of enjoyment and pleasure.

  2 This simple but delightful experience has its parallels in other areas of life. For one thing, as it is true with ripeness in fruit, spiritual maturity in a person is also manifest in various ways. We recognize maturity in a person when we see discernment, insight, wisdom, and so on. (Job 32:7-9) It is certainly a delight to associate and work with people who display such qualities in their attitudes and actions.¡Xproverbs 13:20.

  3 On the other hand, a person may be grown physically, but the way he talks and acts may reveal that he is immature emotionally and spiritually. For example, speaking of the wayward generation of his day, Jesus Christ said: ¡§John came neither eating nor drinking, still people say¡¦He has a demon¡¦; the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, ¡¥Look! A man gluttenous and given to drinking wine.¡¦¡¨ Even though those people were mature physically, Jesus said that they acted like ¡§young children¡¨¡Xanything but mature. Thus, he added: ¡§All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.¡¨¡XMatthew 11 16-19.

  4 From Jesus¡¦ words, we can see that whether a person is in possession of true wisdom¡Xa distinctive sign of maturity¡Xis indicated by the works he performs and the results produced.Along this line, note the Apostle paul¡¦s counsel to Timothy. After enumerating the things that Timothy should pursue, Paul said: ¡§Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, that your advancement may be manifest to all persons.¡¨ (1 Timothy 4:15) Yes, a Christian¡¦s advancement toward maturity is manifest,¡¨ or clearly discernible. Christian maturity, like a shining light, is not an internal or hidden quality. (Matthew 4:14-16)We will, therefore, consider two principle ways in which advancement and maturity may be made manifest: (1) growing in knowledge, understanding, and wisdom; (2) manifesting the frutiage of the spirit.

  Oneness in Faith and Knowledge

  5 Most dictionaries describe maturity as the state of full development, of being full-grown, and as having attained a final state or desired standard. A piece of fruit, as mentioned earlier, is mature, or ripe, when it has completed its natural growth cycle and its appearance, color, aroma, and taste have reached what is considered desirable. Maturity, therefore, is synonymous with excellence, completedness, even perfection.¡XIsaiah 18:5; Matthew 5:45-48; James 1:4

  6 Jehovah God is keenly interested in having all his worshipers advance to spiritual maturity. To that end, he has made wonderful provisions within the Christian congregation. To the Christians in Ephesus, the apostle Paul wrote: ¡§He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of Christ, untill we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate kknowledgeof the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; in order that we shoukld no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.¡¨¡XEphesians 4:11-14.

  7 In these verses, Paul explained that among the reasons why God made such ample spiritual provisions in the congregation are that all should ¡¥attain oneness in the faith and in accurate knowledge,¡¦ become a ¡§full-grown man,¡¨ and have the ¡¥measure of stature of Christ.¡¦ Only then will we be safe from being tossed about like spiritual babes by false ideas and teachings. Thus we see the close relationship between advancing to Christian maturity and gaining ¡§oneness in the faith and in accurate knowledge of the Son of God.¡¨ There are a number of points in Paul¡¦s counsel we do well to take to heart.

  8 First, since ¡§oneness¡¨ is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and ¡§the faithful and discreet slave.¡¨ By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided ¡§at the proper time¡¨¡Xthrough Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions¡Xwe can be sure that we maintain ¡§oneness¡¨ with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.¡XMatthew 24:45.

  9 Second, the expression ¡§the faith¡¨ refers, not to the conviction that each individual Christian professes, but to the totaloity of our belief, ¡§the breadth and length and height and depth¡¨ of it. (Ephesians 3:18; 4:5; Collosians 1:23. 2:7) In fact, how can a Christian be in onesness with fellow believers if he only believes or accepts a certain part of ¡§the faith¡¨? This means that we must not be content with knowing just the basic teachings of the Bible or having just hazy or partial knowledge of the truth. Rather, we should be interested in taking advantage of all of Jehovah¡¦s provisions through his organozation to dig deeply into his Word. We must endeavor to gain as accurate and as full an understanding of God¡¦s will amd purpose as possible. This includes taking the time to read and study the Bible and Bible publications, to pray to God for his help and guidance, to attend Christian meetings regularly, and to have a full share in the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work.¡XProverbs 2:1-5.

  10 Third, Paul prefaced the description of the three-fold goal with the words ¡§untill we all attain.¡¨ Regarding the expression ¡§we all,¡¨ one Bible handbook gives the meaning as ¡§not all, one by one, separately, but all together.¡¨ In other words, each one os us should put forth a reasonable effort to pursue the goal of Christian maturity along with the entire brotherhood. The Interpreter¡¦s Bible observes: ¡§The fullness of spiritual achievement is not to be attained by the individual in isolation, just as one part of the body cannot reach its mature development except as the whole body continues its healthy growth.¡¨ Paul reminded the Ephesian Christians that it was ¡§with all the holy ones¡¨ that they should strive to grasp mentally the full scope of the faith.¡XEphesians 3:18a.

  11 It is clear from Paul¡¦s words that making spiritual advancement does not mean merely filling our mind with knowledge and great learning. The mature Christian is not one who dazzles others with his brilliance. Rather, the Bible says: ¡§The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter untill the day is firmly established. (Proverbs 4:18) Yes, it is ¡§the path,¡¨ not the individual, that is ¡§getting lighter and lighter.¡¨ If we put forth a continuing effort to keep up with the ever brightening understanding of God¡¦s Word that Jehovah is granting his people, we will be making spiritual advancement. In this case, to keep up is to move ahead, and that is something all of us can do.¡XPsalm 97:11; 119:105.

  Manifest ¡§the Fruitage of the Spirit¡¨

  12 While attaining ¡§the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge¡¨ is important, it is equally important for us to manifest the fruitage of God¡¦s spirit in every aspect of our life. Why? This is because maturity, as we have seen, is not internal or hidden, but it is marked by clearly discernible characteristics that can benefit and build up others. Of course, our quest for spiritual advancement is not merely an effort to look cultivated or put on airs. Rather, as we grow spiritually, following the leading of God¡¦s spirit, thre will be a wonderful transformation in our attitudes and actions. ¡§Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all,¡¨ said the apostle Paul.¡XGalations 5:16.

  13 Paul went on to list ¡§the works of the flesh,¡¨ which are numerous and ¡§manifest.¡¨ Before a person comes to appreciate God¡¦s requirements, his life is patterned after the ways of the world and may be filled with some of the things Paul mentioned: ¡§fornication, uncleaness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these.¡¨ (Galatians 5: 19-21) But as the person makes spiritual progress, he gradually gains the mastery over these undesirable ¡§works of the flesh¡¨ and makes room for the ¡§fruitage of the spirit.¡¨ This outwardly visible change is a clear indication that the person is advancing toward Christian maturity.¡XGalatians 5:22.

  14 We should note the two expressions ¡§the works of the flesh¡¨ and ¡§the fruitage of the spirit.¡¨ ¡§Works¡¨ are the results of what one does, the product of one¡¦s actions. In other words, the items that Paul listed as the works of the flesh are the results either of one¡¦s conscious effort or of the influence of the fallen human flesh. (Romans 1:24,28; 7:21-25) On the other hand, the expression ¡§the frutiage of the spirit¡¨ implies that the qualities listed are, not the results of efforts in so-called character development or personality enhancement, but the results of the operation of God¡¦s spirit on a person. Just as a tree will bear fruit when it is properly tended, so a person will manifest the fruitage of the spirit when holy spirit flows freely in his life.¡XPsalm 1:1-3.

  15 Another point to consider is Paul¡¦s use of the word ¡§fruitage¡¨ to encompass all the desirable qualities that he mentioned. * The spirit does not produce a variety of fruits for us to pick our favorite. All the qualities listed by Paul¡Xlove, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, and self-control¡Xare equally important, and together they make possible the new Christian personality. (Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10) Therefore, while we may find that certain ones of these qualities are more evident in our life on account of our own personality and inclinations, it is important that we give attention to all aspects mentioned by Paul. By so doing, we can more fully reflect a Christlike personality in our life.¡X1 Peter 2:12, 21.

  16 The important lesson we can learn from Paul¡¦s discussion is that in the pursuit of Christian maturity, our objective is neither to acquire great knowledge and learning nor to cultivate refined personality traits. It is to gain a free flow of God¡¦s spirit in our life. To the extent that our thinking and actions are responsive to the leading of God¡¦s spirit, to that extent we become spiritually mature. How can we achieve this objective? We must open our heart and mind to the influence of God¡¦s spirit. This involves our faithfully attending and participating in Christian meetings. We should also regularly study and meditate on God¡¦s word, allowing its principles to guide our dealings with others and the choices and decisions we make. Certainly, then, our advancement will be clearly manifest.

  Make Advancement for God¡¦s Glory

  17 Ultimately, making our advancement manifest brings glory and praise, not to us, but to our heavenly Father, Jehovah, who makes it possible for us to gain spiritual maturity. On the night before Jesus was killed he told the disciples¡¨ ¡§My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples.¡¨ (John 15:8) Both by the fruitage of the spirit and by the kingdom fruitage of their ministry, the disciples brought glory to Jehovah.¡XActs 11:4, 18; 13:48.

  18 Today, Jehovah¡¦s blessing is upon his people as they engage in a global spiritual harvest. For a number of years now, about 300,000 new ones every year have dedicated themselves to Jehovah and symbolized their dedication by water baptism. This makes us happy and undoubtedly also makes Jehovah¡¦s heart rejoice. (Proverbs 27:11) However, for this to be a continuous source of joy and praise to Jehovah, all such new ones need to ¡§go on walking in union with [Christ], rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith.¡¨ (Colossians 2:6,7) This presents a two-fold challenge to God¡¦s people. On the one hand, if you are newly baptized, will you accept the challenge to apply yourself so that ¡§your advancement may be manifest to all persons¡¨? On the other hand, if you have been in the truth for some time, will you accept the challenge to shoulder the responsibility of caring for the spiritual welfare of new ones? In either case, the need for pressing on to maturity is clear.¡XPhillipians 3:16; Hebrews 6:1.

  19 Wonderful blessings await all who work hard to make their advancement manifest. Recall Paul¡¦s encouraging words after he urged Timothy to make advancement: ¡§Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Stay by these things, for by so doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.¡¨ (1 Timothy 4:16) By diligently making your advancement, you too can share in the privilege of glorifying God¡¦s name and enjoying his blessings.

  „h The word ¡§fruitage¡¨ is simply ¡§fruit¡¨ in the original language.¡XGalations 5:22, Kingdom Interlinear Translation.

  1 How can you tell when a fruit is ripe and ready to eat?
  2 How is maturity made manifest, and what effect does it have on personal relationships?
  3 What did Jesus¡¦ description of the people of his day reveal about maturity?
  4 In what ways are advancement and maturity made manifest?
  5 how can maturity be defined?
  6,7 (a) What shows that Jehovah is keenly interested in having all his worshipers advance to spiritual maturity? (b) To what is spiritual maturity closely related?
  8 What does attaining ¡§oneness¡¨ in the faith and accurate knowledge require?
  9 Explain the meaning of the expression ¡§the faith¡¨ as used by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians.
  10 What is the significance of the words ¡§untill we all attain,¡¨ as used at Ephesians 4:13?
  11 (a) What does making spiritual advancement not imply? (b) What do we need to do to make advancement?
  12 Why is manifesting the fruitage of the spirit important in our quest for spiritual advancement?
  13 What change is a clear indication of advancement?
  14 Explain the two expressions ¡§the works of the flesh¡¨ and ¡§the fruitage of the spirit.¡¨
  15 Why is it important to give attention to all aspects of ¡§the fruitage of the spirit¡¨?
  16 What is our objective in our pursuit of Christian maturity, and how can it be achieved?
  17 How is making advancement related to glorifying our heavenly Father?
  18 (a) What joyful harvest is taking place today? (b) What challenge does this harvest present?
  19 What privileges and blessings can be yours if you make your advancement manifest?

  Do You Recall?

  In what ways can spiritual maturity be made manifest?

  What kind of knowledge and understanding reflect maturity?

  How does manifesting ¡§the fruitage of the spirit¡¨ indicate spiritual advancement?

  What challenge should we accept as we press on to maturity?

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.