call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dear Joel,
Thanks for your fair and balanced presentation. You touched on points that I am genuinely concerned about. While I disagree with what I feel is your sexual preference, I think you are looking at matters more objectively than others on this list. One cannot necessarily say that a homosexual will automatically molest children if they are left alone with the said homosexual. Greenless may have been gay. I'm not sure that he was a molestor, however
Sincerely,
Dan
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dearest Tina,
You write:
:dunscot,("call you a neo-positivist.." nahh blusterer maybe lol)
Thanks for the post. I've printed it out. Yours is the finest example of intellectualization,one of the defense mechanisms.
Your posts show(so well) how one can be in such denial of uncomfortable realities. And how one can use such esoteric language to totally remove themself from any emotional ramifications of said subject.:
You got all that out of my little old post? Wow! Tina, you're a gem. Have I ever stopped to tell you that you're one of the most lovely people on this elegant board? You really are. :-)
:I'm sharing this w/ a psych prof I know. He found your other posts quite revealing as well. What a wall of denial you have constructed.
But like another poster thought,maybe your psyche is unable to
accept the harsh realities,so you remain in your rarified air of academic intellectualization. I feel for you.Sometimes denial is removed brick by brick. Once in a while,something just slams into it and knocks the whole thing to rubble. We know this-we've all been there. We'll be here for support when your wall cracks or falls. regards,Tina:
I obviously disagree with the good professor's analysis, but I really would like to hear more. I still love psychology and I remember discussing defense mechanisms in abnormal psychology. Please let me know what your friend thinks of this non-intellectual post.
Ciao,
Dan
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dear buffalo,
:You sound just like the elders, it takes two to tango so to speak, and when children are abused the abuser doesn't go and get witnesses to the fact. So just how do you verify the fact? Like the elder body you just let the abuser keep on abusing and then let the abused be abused or suffer the consequences of actions of the elder body, People like you truly make me sick.:
I'm not saying the abuser should be be allowed to continue in his or her pattern of abuse. But my concern revolves around brothers and sisters who are unfairly and wrongly accused of child abuse. A very close friend of mine experienced this very thing. (Look at the recent case of the Paula Poundstone, who has a drinking problem, but may be innocent of child abuse charges!) If we're just going to accept every case of alleged abuse that comes along without any compelling evidence, what procedure would you implement to protect the innocent accused?
Lastly, I'm also concerned about folks like Silentlambs that engage in smear campaigns while providing zero evidence for their claims. What does the Bible say about bearing false witness against thy neighbor?
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dear larc,
:Duns,
I don't think any level of empirical proof would convince you.:
It depends on the quality of the empirical proof, how it holds up under serious scrutiny and how it relates to my experience of Dasein.
:As I said before, you live in the rarified world of ideas. Ah, the beauty of ideas, the wonderful sounds of words, the majesty of the interconnectedness of concepts.:
Theory, ideas, words, morphemes, graphemes, morphemes, and concepts are the conditio sine qua non of praxis, IMHO. To paraphrase Kant: 'theory without practice is empty, but practice without theory (or concepts) is blind.' Furthermore, I think that Lewis Gordon is correct when he speaks of words creating worlds. Thought is also capable of constructing or constituting reality, to a certain extent. So I fail to see why anyone would manifest antipathy for the life of the mind.
:If you come out of the rarified stratasphere of espistimology and on to the earthen plane of human misery, I am afraid that it would damage your psyche. Furthermore, it would cause you cognitive disonance to realize that the beauty of theory does not translate into beauty in reality.:
I too live in a soma. I also experience ontological inertia and the wretched misery that accompanies existence in this age. Additionally, this typer is concerned about the plight of his fellow humans, whether they be fellow Witnesses or not. I can thus many times echo the words of Qoheleth, who wrote in a very poignant manner: 'I hated life.' Ergo, I do not think it is fair to insist that I am untouched by human suffering as I sit on top of these "clouds." Nevertheless, life is not all bad. Does not cognitive psychology teach us that our thinking may have a lot to do with our happiness in this world? Did not Maslow show the potential that resides in human beings?
:If, someday, the WT ideology crashes for you. We will be here.:
Thanks for the sincere offer. I really don't know how much help I could receive from this board if I needed it, however.
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Book_friend writes:
:And let me add.... Dunscot you know good and well that Silentlambs did not say if those particular Governing Body were ever pedophile or not. You read that into his saying that they all had "something" in common. For all you know, Dunscot, he meant they there have been stories told about them being against sex period. Who knows. Just don't try to put words into people's mouths.:
My exact words were: "With zero proof, Silentlambs suggests that certain GB members were/are possibly child molesters. I'm waiting for the falsifiable/verifiable proof from 'Silentlambs,' however."
I thus did not put words in the mouth of Silentlambs. I honestly think Silentlambs'intention was to suggest something unseemly about certain GB members. Am I wrong? Time will tell.
:But as a matter of fact, yes, some of us have heard some things about Sydlik for example. Now what are those things? He has held great power over Bethelites though some of the guys there have been especially warm toward him, normally seems amiable and just a good-old-boy friendly joking type of guy but in private is sometimes extremely rude with blistering word attacks when his mightiness is interrupted, and some have had big questions about his marriage to a somewhat younger sister for reasons no one is going to go into details about, not here anyways.:
So you choose to also repeat hearsay and post more insinuations about Sydlik's behavior. Nice touch. :-)
:Now, Dun, will you misinterpret that either? Stop jumping to conclusions, dude. Let Dateline have its say. I think we're all aware the Watchtower would like to know as soon as possible when the show is to air....let them whistle in the wind till the last second.
I say let's don't tell them what they want. Ouch, ouch, ouch!:
I have a feeling "the Watchtower" is sitting back with no worries, man. I, on the other hand, sit here waiting for the "sound and fury" to cease.
Have a nice night,
Dan
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dear larc,
:Duns,
A survey on this board revealed that 80% knew of child abusers. One person in a very high position knew of 40.:
What does the figure 80% mean in relation to this board? I'm not sure how many people are currently are or were members of this forum when the survey was taken. What is more, I don't have to remind you about the importance of the scientific method vis-a'-vis surveys or polls. How scientific was the survey that was conducted on this board? I also wonder about the alethic nature of some on this board. I'm sure you're not touting this survey, therefore, as verifiable or falsifiable proof.
:I did a survey in my house. My wife knew of two; I didn't know of any. Of course, when I was in, I was pretty much like you, into the world of ideas and oblivious as to what was going on around me.:
According to Plato and Hegel, the world of Ideas or the rational constitute that which is actually real. I think one can say the same for science in many respects. Until I had taken courses in basic psychology or sociology, the present writer believed many "myths" that most people (JWs or not) nowadays think are common sensical. Scientific studies, for example, are often counter-intuitive. They explode our concepts of reality and often re-align them in a beneficial way. On the other hand, I do not believe every study I read about, as illustrated by the study that suggested 95% of families are dysfunctional. I simply do not buy that statistic. Yet I wonder what a survey asking about dysfunctional families would yield on this board.
Lastly, one must keep in mind that we are all influenced by our personal individual perceptions. Could some people perceive certain phenomenons that in the end turn out to be misapprehensions of phenomenal appearances?
:I take it that where you live, they are into wife swapping, not child abuse.:
I wish!! <LOL>
Sincerely,
Dan
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Dear Seeker,
:People's lives and emotions cannot be reduced to verifiable/falsifiable data. You will never get what you are asking for, for it would depend on full disclosure of everyone's lives, and they will never do that.:
Notice that I said I am a semi-verificationist/falsificationist. I make this qualification since the Dutch philosopher Herman Dooyeweerd militated against the absolutization (the deification) of what he called "the mathematical-science ideal." I have often used his delineation of modal spheres and the mathematical science-ideal to argue against gauging intelligence by means of IQ tests. Therefore, I am not suggesting that we reduce human lives or experiences to hard data. (African-American thinker Lewis R. Gordon also shows the inadequacies of a neopositivist approach in his works on Africana philosophy. See _Her Majesty's Other Children_ for details.) But in the face of no empirical (verifibable or falsifiable proof), I have a hard time believing some of these claims. True some people simply will not come forth and we should take this situation into account when adjudicating such claims. I'm just asking that Silentlambs and others on this board exercise prudence before they embellish the problem of child molestation in the JW community of faith.
:Some victims can barely think about their past, let alone provide proof. Furthermore, most victimizations occur on a one-to-one basis with no eyewitnesses. Much of this information will therefore be one person's words against another's. Nevertheless, enough of us have personal knowledge of such victims to know that it not only exists, but exists in larger numbers than the average JW would guess. How many total exist we may never know, but enough have come forward to act now. Better to act now and help prevent future victims than to sit back waiting for data in the strictest scientific sense.:
Can someone at least say approximately how many people have come forth, without revealing identities? Is it 100 or 200 or 1000 persons? Even these numbers would be small in relation to the number of Witnesses who abhor the practice of child molestation, and refuse to practice it.
:I agree with you about not letting our emotions carry us away, and I agree with the need to have facts at hand, but this is a tricky area given the way it is done in secret. Be patient -- you will soon see more evidence.:
I'll wait to see the Dateline special. Hopefully other forms of evidence will also be presented.
Sincerely,
Dan
Duns the Scot
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.
that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "Silentlambs" reminds me of the Shakespearean line that was quoted in the Creator book published by the WTBTS. That is, the contentions of Silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.
I am of course referring to the supposed Dateline show and the claims made about some members of the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses. I find it absolutely amazing that some folks (certain opposers of JWs) are so quick to accept basically anything that other adversaries of Jehovah's Witnesses articulate. With zero proof, Silentlambs suggests that certain GB members were/are possibly child molesters. I'm waiting for the falsifiable/verifiable proof from "Silentlambs," however.
Secondly, while I continue to hear the loud "drumbeats" on this list accompanying the many cases of alleged child molestation that JWs are supposedly covering up, I still await statistics and verifiable/ falsifiable data. I will not deny that there may indeed be cases of pederasty in the organization, just as wife-swapping and a number of other disgusting practices occur. But I wonder how many children have actually been molested in the organization. (The policy for handling such cases is another issue.) For while folks like the good people on this list may love hyping up a story that is devoid of evidence, I've learned that emotional reactions and "common sense" can often deceive us, if we are not careful. Sometimes we need quantifiable data to bring some sanity back to the discussion. So Duns looks forward to a time when the signifiers that are presently signifying nothing will cease being posted on this board.
I can dream, can't I? :-)
Dan
Duns the Scot
questions from readers.
is it scriptural to trim nose hair?.
a christian is governed by conscience.
Dear Roy,
:Dear Dunce Scot
Thanks for your 'suggestions' and for parsing the first two paragraphs. But this a a case of semantic pedantism up with which i will not put.
Regards
Roy
PS: Are you ex-Writing Committee?:
LOL! I was never on the writing committee, but Dunsscot is one anal-ytic philosopha.
Later,
Dan :-)
Duns the Scot
i thought i could finish a response to your last reply to me in the "freedom of thought" thread, before i leave on vacation.
no such luck; i'm leaving for more than a week in just a little while.
i'll post a complete response after i get back, probably in about two weeks.. alanf
I'll be waiting, AF. Have a good vacation.
Duns the Scot
