Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot 113 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  dunsscot

  Call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "Silentlambs" reminds me of the Shakespearean line that was quoted in the Creator book published by the WTBTS. That is, the contentions of Silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.

  I am of course referring to the supposed Dateline show and the claims made about some members of the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses. I find it absolutely amazing that some folks (certain opposers of JWs) are so quick to accept basically anything that other adversaries of Jehovah's Witnesses articulate. With zero proof, Silentlambs suggests that certain GB members were/are possibly child molesters. I'm waiting for the falsifiable/verifiable proof from "Silentlambs," however.

  Secondly, while I continue to hear the loud "drumbeats" on this list accompanying the many cases of alleged child molestation that JWs are supposedly covering up, I still await statistics and verifiable/ falsifiable data. I will not deny that there may indeed be cases of pederasty in the organization, just as wife-swapping and a number of other disgusting practices occur. But I wonder how many children have actually been molested in the organization. (The policy for handling such cases is another issue.) For while folks like the good people on this list may love hyping up a story that is devoid of evidence, I've learned that emotional reactions and "common sense" can often deceive us, if we are not careful. Sometimes we need quantifiable data to bring some sanity back to the discussion. So Duns looks forward to a time when the signifiers that are presently signifying nothing will cease being posted on this board.

  I can dream, can't I? :-)

  Dan

  Duns the Scot
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  Farkel

  : Call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist

  Why use any of those fancy words, when "pompous windbag" works just fine?

  Farkel
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  Seeker

  People's lives and emotions cannot be reduced to verifiable/falsifiable data. You will never get what you are asking for, for it would depend on full disclosure of everyone's lives, and they will never do that. Some victims can barely think about their past, let alone provide proof. Furthermore, most victimizations occur on a one-to-one basis with no eyewitnesses. Much of this information will therefore be one person's words against another's.

  Nevertheless, enough of us have personal knowledge of such victims to know that it not only exists, but exists in larger numbers than the average JW would guess. How many total exist we may never know, but enough have come forward to act now. Better to act now and help prevent future victims than to sit back waiting for data in the strictest scientific sense.

  I agree with you about not letting our emotions carry us away, and I agree with the need to have facts at hand, but this is a tricky area given the way it is done in secret. Be patient -- you will soon see more evidence.
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  Jeremy Bravo

  Duns,

  I used to be the kind of guy you talk about who accepted anything said by the group I identified myself with.

  Then I left the JW's.

  Jer.

  "When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. Life is a relationship to the whole." - Bruce Lee.
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  dunsscot

  Dear Seeker,

  :People's lives and emotions cannot be reduced to verifiable/falsifiable data. You will never get what you are asking for, for it would depend on full disclosure of everyone's lives, and they will never do that.:

  Notice that I said I am a semi-verificationist/falsificationist. I make this qualification since the Dutch philosopher Herman Dooyeweerd militated against the absolutization (the deification) of what he called "the mathematical-science ideal." I have often used his delineation of modal spheres and the mathematical science-ideal to argue against gauging intelligence by means of IQ tests. Therefore, I am not suggesting that we reduce human lives or experiences to hard data. (African-American thinker Lewis R. Gordon also shows the inadequacies of a neopositivist approach in his works on Africana philosophy. See _Her Majesty's Other Children_ for details.) But in the face of no empirical (verifibable or falsifiable proof), I have a hard time believing some of these claims. True some people simply will not come forth and we should take this situation into account when adjudicating such claims. I'm just asking that Silentlambs and others on this board exercise prudence before they embellish the problem of child molestation in the JW community of faith.

  :Some victims can barely think about their past, let alone provide proof. Furthermore, most victimizations occur on a one-to-one basis with no eyewitnesses. Much of this information will therefore be one person's words against another's. Nevertheless, enough of us have personal knowledge of such victims to know that it not only exists, but exists in larger numbers than the average JW would guess. How many total exist we may never know, but enough have come forward to act now. Better to act now and help prevent future victims than to sit back waiting for data in the strictest scientific sense.:

  Can someone at least say approximately how many people have come forth, without revealing identities? Is it 100 or 200 or 1000 persons? Even these numbers would be small in relation to the number of Witnesses who abhor the practice of child molestation, and refuse to practice it.

  :I agree with you about not letting our emotions carry us away, and I agree with the need to have facts at hand, but this is a tricky area given the way it is done in secret. Be patient -- you will soon see more evidence.:

  I'll wait to see the Dateline special. Hopefully other forms of evidence will also be presented.

  Sincerely,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot
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  larc

  Duns,

  A survey on this board revealed that 80% knew of child abusers. One person in a very high position knew of 40. I did a survey in my house. My wife knew of two; I didn't know of any. Of course, when I was in, I was pretty much like you, into the world of ideas and oblivious as to what was going on around me.

  I take it that where you live, they are into wife swapping, not child abuse.
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  dunsscot

  Dear larc,

  :Duns,
  A survey on this board revealed that 80% knew of child abusers. One person in a very high position knew of 40.:

  What does the figure 80% mean in relation to this board? I'm not sure how many people are currently are or were members of this forum when the survey was taken. What is more, I don't have to remind you about the importance of the scientific method vis-a'-vis surveys or polls. How scientific was the survey that was conducted on this board? I also wonder about the alethic nature of some on this board. I'm sure you're not touting this survey, therefore, as verifiable or falsifiable proof.

  :I did a survey in my house. My wife knew of two; I didn't know of any. Of course, when I was in, I was pretty much like you, into the world of ideas and oblivious as to what was going on around me.:

  According to Plato and Hegel, the world of Ideas or the rational constitute that which is actually real. I think one can say the same for science in many respects. Until I had taken courses in basic psychology or sociology, the present writer believed many "myths" that most people (JWs or not) nowadays think are common sensical. Scientific studies, for example, are often counter-intuitive. They explode our concepts of reality and often re-align them in a beneficial way. On the other hand, I do not believe every study I read about, as illustrated by the study that suggested 95% of families are dysfunctional. I simply do not buy that statistic. Yet I wonder what a survey asking about dysfunctional families would yield on this board.

  Lastly, one must keep in mind that we are all influenced by our personal individual perceptions. Could some people perceive certain phenomenons that in the end turn out to be misapprehensions of phenomenal appearances?

  :I take it that where you live, they are into wife swapping, not child abuse.:

  I wish!! <LOL>

  Sincerely,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot
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  book_friend

  And let me add.... Dunscot you know good and well that Silentlambs did not say if those particular Governing Body were ever pedophile or not. You read that into his saying that they all had "something" in common. For all you know, Dunscot, he meant they there have been stories told about them being against sex period. Who knows. Just don't try to put words into people's mouths.

  But as a matter of fact, yes, some of us have heard some things about Sydlik for example. Now what are those things? He has held great power over Bethelites though some of the guys there have been especially warm toward him, normally seems amiable and just a good-old-boy friendly joking type of guy but in private is sometimes extremely rude with blistering word attacks when his mightiness is interrupted, and some have had big questions about his marriage to a somewhat younger sister for reasons no one is going to go into details about, not here anyways.

  Now, Dun, will you misinterpret that either? Stop jumping to conclusions, dude. Let Dateline have its say. I think we're all aware the Watchtower would like to know as soon as possible when the show is to air....let them whistle in the wind till the last second.
  I say let's don't tell them what they want. Ouch, ouch, ouch!

  P.S. But then maybe you're right, maybe certain things have been found out and will be aired. Whatever "certain" might also mean :) Should be a verrrrrrrrry interesting t.v. show!
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  Flip

  I suspect many persons including those who control the WTBTS, because of their recent absence of negative comment in this regard, also feel Christendom received a judicial "bum wrap" for turning a blind eye to "alleged" transgressions over those pesky little ones.

  Don’t sweat it Dunsscot, it will only affect the “financial pocket book” of the WTBTS Corporation.

  If recent history is any indication, everything should turn out just fine in the long run for the multi-billion dollar “religious” Corporations, including the WTBTS. :)

  Flip
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  dunsscot

  Book_friend writes:

  :And let me add.... Dunscot you know good and well that Silentlambs did not say if those particular Governing Body were ever pedophile or not. You read that into his saying that they all had "something" in common. For all you know, Dunscot, he meant they there have been stories told about them being against sex period. Who knows. Just don't try to put words into people's mouths.:

  My exact words were: "With zero proof, Silentlambs suggests that certain GB members were/are possibly child molesters. I'm waiting for the falsifiable/verifiable proof from 'Silentlambs,' however."

  I thus did not put words in the mouth of Silentlambs. I honestly think Silentlambs'intention was to suggest something unseemly about certain GB members. Am I wrong? Time will tell.
  
  :But as a matter of fact, yes, some of us have heard some things about Sydlik for example. Now what are those things? He has held great power over Bethelites though some of the guys there have been especially warm toward him, normally seems amiable and just a good-old-boy friendly joking type of guy but in private is sometimes extremely rude with blistering word attacks when his mightiness is interrupted, and some have had big questions about his marriage to a somewhat younger sister for reasons no one is going to go into details about, not here anyways.:

  So you choose to also repeat hearsay and post more insinuations about Sydlik's behavior. Nice touch. :-)

  :Now, Dun, will you misinterpret that either? Stop jumping to conclusions, dude. Let Dateline have its say. I think we're all aware the Watchtower would like to know as soon as possible when the show is to air....let them whistle in the wind till the last second.
  I say let's don't tell them what they want. Ouch, ouch, ouch!:

  I have a feeling "the Watchtower" is sitting back with no worries, man. I, on the other hand, sit here waiting for the "sound and fury" to cease.

  Have a nice night,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot