Earnest

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Posts by Earnest

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  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

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  Earnest

  raymond frantz : Are all those documents in question now 2000 years later that some Jewish, Christian hating, so called historians want us to question everything about our faith?

  "Christian hating". Really? "so called historian". Really? You are throwing around a lot of emotive words about something that has nothing to do with faith. We are not talking about the words of Jesus, but about a fourth century historian. And Jonathan Bourgel is an historian whose PhD was on The Jewish Christians of Judea from the Great Revolt (66-73 CE) until the Bar Kokhba War (132-135/6 CE). He knows what he is talking about.

  Further, there are a number of scholars who question the historicity of what Eusebius wrote :

  G. Strecker, Das Judenchristentum in den Pseudo-Klementinen, (1958; 2nd ed. rev; Berlin: Akademie-Verlag, 1981) 229–231; J. Munck, Jewish-Christianity in Post-Apostolic Times,” New Testament Studies 6 (1959–60), 103–104; L. Gaston, No stone on Another: Studies in the Signiicance of the Fall of Jerusalem in the Synoptic Gospels, (Leiden: E. J. Brill 1970), 142 n. 3; G. Lüdemann, The Successors of pre-70 Jerusalem Christianity: A Critical Evaluation of the Pella-Tradition in "Jewish and Christian Self-Definition", (edited by E. P. Sanders. Philadelphia, PA: Fortress Press 1980), vol. 1 161–173; J. Verheyden, The Flight of the Christians to Pella, Ephemerides Theologicae Lovanienses, vol. 66 Issue 4 (1990), 368–384.

  Are they all Christian-hating, so-called historians? Not only that, but if you had bothered to read what Jonathan Bourgel wrote, you would have seen that he doesn't rubbish Eusebius, but says (p.111) "we tend to uphold the reliability of Eusebius’ statement, even though we suspect him to have altered the chronology of the Jewish-Christians’ flight for his own purposes".

  Vidqun : Eusebius was a respected Church historian. Why would he lie?

  It is not a case of him lying, but of embroidering a kernel of truth for apologetic purposes. Eusebius does not say who/what his source was so it is left to speculation. Quite likely some Jerusalem Christians did end up in Pella either before or during the war, and this was embellished to "something that had been commanded by a revelation" which involved the whole church.
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  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

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  Earnest

  raymond frantz : By the way Eusebius is not the only one of that period to write about the Christian Exodus.

  You are right. Epiphanius also discusses the flight to Pella. Three times in fact. Twice in the Panarion and also in his treatise On Weights and Measures. But Epiphanius wrote in the second half of the fourth century which was after Eusebius wrote his Ecclesiastical History.

  raymond frantz : I'd rather believe Eusebius who lived 200 years after the events rather than a Jewish "historian" who lived 2000 years later ...

  The point isn't so much that Eusebius wrote about Pella 200 years after the alleged event, but that none of the prolific writers amongst the ante-Nicene fathers mentioned it before him. No-one, Christian, Jewish or pagan, mentioned it for 200 years.
  
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  80

  Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

  by liam in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

  what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

  now the wt is saying that's not enough.

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  Earnest

  Note that the authenticity of Eusebius's account has been debated amongst historians because

  (a) he wrote his Ecclesiastical History over 200 years after the events;

  (b) there is no corroborating evidence from contemporary sources including Josephus;

  (c) a pagan city seems an unlikely place for refuge in a time of Roman hostility to Jews;

  (d) the narrative fits too neatly with Christian theological interpretations of Jerusalem's destruction, comparing it to the fall of Sodom and the escape of Lot and his daughters.

  The article The Jewish Christians' Move from Jerusalem as a Pragmatic Choice by Jonathan Bourgel in Studies in Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity – Text and Context, 2010, gives more substance to these arguments.
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  15

  Further Crisis looming for JW org re Safeguarding ?

  by Phizzy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  if you substitute j.w org for c of e this really hits home : (from bbc news site) :.

  the church of england risks further crisis if it fails to adopt a sweeping new independent system to keep people safe, the former head of a national inquiry into child sexual abuse has said.

  (prof. alexis jay).. "i think it's absolutely necessary because church safeguarding as it stands falls below the standards of secular organisations, and i do not think that can continue when it has also led to such serious weaknesses," she told the bbc..

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  Earnest

  Phizzy : They [Church of England] are debating the idea of an Independent Body to assess their efforts.

  Yesterday (11 February) the Church of England General Synod had to choose between two models of safeguarding - the first involved creating an independent central safeguarding team for the Church - but with safeguarding officers continuing in their current roles; the second (recommended by Professor Jay) would also make the Church's safeguarding officers part of that independent body.
  

  The Synod voted (392 to 9, with 6 abstentions) for the first option, which Professor Jay described as "deeply disappointing" and "devastating for victims and survivors". A report on the vote can be read here.

  Phizzy : The CofE ... have adopted a good number of measures, and I bet they apply to C of E Churches wherever they are.

  Au contraire. In the report by Professor Jay, she noted (p.18) "that dioceses operate their safeguarding services very differently, and that the bishop can exert significant influence over local safeguarding."
  
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  15

  Further Crisis looming for JW org re Safeguarding ?

  by Phizzy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  if you substitute j.w org for c of e this really hits home : (from bbc news site) :.

  the church of england risks further crisis if it fails to adopt a sweeping new independent system to keep people safe, the former head of a national inquiry into child sexual abuse has said.

  (prof. alexis jay).. "i think it's absolutely necessary because church safeguarding as it stands falls below the standards of secular organisations, and i do not think that can continue when it has also led to such serious weaknesses," she told the bbc..

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  Earnest

  jhine : I would be very interested to find out what other measures Prof Jay thinks need to be implemented.

  The report and recommendations by Professor Jay can be read here.
  

  Professor Jay recommends (Future of Church Safeguarding, Section 10) :

  (a) that the church introduces mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse ahead of legislation (which is due this Spring);

  (b) that the church complies with statutory definitions of children and vulnerable people over the age of 18 when it come to safeguarding;

  (c) that the church uses guidance relating to emotional and psychological abuse pertaining to vulnerable adults and children rather than spiritual abuse in all guidance, training and in referring cases.
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  5

  G.B. via NWT hijacks the kingdom for themselves!

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  (daniel 7:27) "then the kingdom, authority, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be delivered to the people of the holy ones of the most high.

  his kingdom is an eternal kingdom; all authorities will serve him and obey him.

  " (net bible).

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  Earnest

  Boogerman, this part of Daniel was originally written in Aramaic and the relevant pronouns and suffixes (in Aramaic) can be read as singular ("his") or plural ("their"). The context is also ambiguous - Daniel 7:27 is talking about both "the Supreme One" (singular) and "the people who are the holy ones" (plural), so both readings make sense.

  Some translations like the NIV and ESV use "his kingdom," interpreting the kingdom as belonging to the Most High. Others like the NRSV, YLT and NWT use "their kingdom," understanding it as referring to the holy ones who will receive the kingdom.

  The broader context of Daniel 7 involves a vision about kingdoms, with the kingdom ultimately being given to "the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One". Doesn't it make more sense to have the plural reading?
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  2

  Who is "the Christ" in 1927 per Rutherford

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  n 1926, rutherford reinterpreted the faithful slave from a single person to a group of people.

  thus the interpretation had come full circle, but this time the servant included jesus as well as the 144,000.  so "the christ" is jesus alone, jesus and member of his body collectively as one, or applied only to the members of the body of christ yet on earth.

  three different things.... "seeing then that the servant of jehovah is the christ, and that the christ is composed of jesus and the faithful members of his body, we find it proper to apply the term "servant" to jesus christ alone or to jesus christ and the members of his body collectively as one; and sometimes it is applied only to the members of the body of christ yet on earth.

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  Earnest

  Blondie, the thought that the Faithful Slave was a group of people already existed way back in 1881.

  We believe that every member of this body of Christ is engaged in the blessed work, either directly or indirectly, of giving meat in due season to the household of faith. "Who then is that faithful and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household," to give them meat in due season? Is it not that "little flock" of consecrated servants who are faithfully carrying out their consecration vows - the body of Christ - and is not the whole body individually and collectively, giving the meat in due season to the household of faith - the great company of believers? Watchtower 1881 November (Reprints) p.291
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  2

  Any information about the special worldwide meeting update and a GB member visit in South Africa?

  by iloowy.goowy in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  does any one have any information about the special worldwide meeting update and a gb member visit in south africa yesterday?.

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  Earnest

  In one of the reports they showed the following peak publishers/pioneers for the 2024 service year :

  Namibia : 2,963 publishers (+9%)

  Botswana : 408 pioneers (+12%)

  Eswatini : 464 pioneers (+19%)

  Lesotho : 778 pioneers (+20%)

  South Africa : 16,516 pioneers (+12%)

  In a separate report on building and upgrading Kingdom Halls they showed where this had happened including the one below :

  
  
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  18

  Child abuse calculations

  by Anony Mous in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  there are no real numbers for jws but they are a relatively small group.

  compared to the number of catholics at least.. the australian commission gathered more than 5000 cases with over 1000 perpetrators that went completely unreported for the jws.

  likewise they did the same for catholics and collected just under 4800 cases with 1880 perpetrators.

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  Earnest

  As regards sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, the report (p.35) found that of all Catholic priests included in the survey who ministered between 1950 and 2010, taking into account the duration of ministry, 7 per cent were alleged perpetrators.

  The proportion of alleged perpetrators in specific Catholic Church authorities included: the St John of God Brothers (40.4 per cent); the Christian Brothers (22.0 per cent); the Benedictine Community of New Norcia (21.5 per cent); the Salesians of Don Bosco (20.9 per cent); the Marist Brothers (20.4 per cent); the Diocese of Sale in Victoria (15.1 per cent); the De La Salle Brothers (13.8 per cent) and the Archdiocese of Adelaide in South Australia (2.4 per cent).
  
  
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  18

  Child abuse calculations

  by Anony Mous in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  there are no real numbers for jws but they are a relatively small group.

  compared to the number of catholics at least.. the australian commission gathered more than 5000 cases with over 1000 perpetrators that went completely unreported for the jws.

  likewise they did the same for catholics and collected just under 4800 cases with 1880 perpetrators.

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  Earnest

  Anony Mous : The Australian commission gathered more than 5000 cases with over 1000 perpetrators that went completely unreported for the JWs.

  According to the report (p.58), Watchtower produced 5000 documents comprising, among other things, case files relating to 1,006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse dating back to 1950. The Commission found that these allegations relate to at least 1,800 alleged victims of child sexual abuse.