Posts by Earnest

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : The deliberate application of "ho theos" to Jesus in John 20:28 is not an exception but a culmination of John’s theological narrative.

If the application of "ho theos" to Jesus in John 20:28 is not an exception, where else in the Gospel of John is "ho theos" used to refer to anyone other than the Father?

aqwsed12345 : While "ho theos" typically refers to the Father, there are instances in John’s Gospel where the context suggests a broader application:

In my previous post I asked which instances you have in mind (if John 20:28 is not an exception), and you listed John 1:1 and John 10:30. But you agree "ho theos" only refers to the Father in John 1:1 and it doesn't occur in John 10:30.

This is not a trick question. It was not intended to be polemic. But each time I ask, you suggest I am implying something (which I am not) and then go into a lengthy explanation without providing relevant verse(s) to substantiate this.

If you do not know of exceptions other than John 20:28 then say so. If you decline to answer my question then say so. But why go on saying John does not rigidly restrict the use of "ho theos" to the Father if you are unable or unwilling to produce the evidence?

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : You seem to suggest that the frequent use of ho theos for the Father excludes the Son from being fully divine.

I am not suggesting anything. I am only listing those instances in the Gospel of John where theos is preceded by the definite article (excluding genitive and dative cases), and asking who/what you think it identifies.

aqwsed12345 : Yes, in most of the instances cited (e.g., John 3:33–34, John 6:27, John 8:41–42, etc.), ho theos refers specifically to the Father.

I wonder if there are any instances apart from the two you have mentioned (John 4:24; 20:28) where ho theos does not refer specifically to the Father.

Let me explain why I ask. I, personally, understand that "ho theos" refers specifically to the Father in all instances in the Gospel of John and I want to know whether there are good reasons to understand it differently in any verse with the exception of John 20:28.

It would be a great help to me if you could list those instances in the Gospel of John where you believe that "God" preceded by the definite article does not refer specifically to the Father, and possibly explain why you think John would make an exception (if there are other exceptions) to his normal use of ho theos.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

@ aqwsed12345 :

Thank you for your willingness to clarify your understanding of ho theos ("the God") in the gospel of John.

You have said ho theos is the standard designation for the Father and indicated that in John 1:1, 1:2, 3:16-17, and 5:18 ho theos specifically refers to the Father.

I understand you consider that in John 4:24 it does not refer to the Father specifically, and that in John 20:28 it refers to the Son specifically.

I listed fourteen other instances that John uses "the God" (ho theos/ton theon) in his gospel. Would I be correct to assume that in these fourteen instances you also understand "the God" to refer specifically to the Father? The instances were :

John 3:33,34 "He that has accepted his witness has put his seal to it that [the] God [ho theos] is true. For the one whom [the] God [ho theos] sent forth speaks the sayings of [the] God [tou theou], for he does not give the spirit by measure".

John 6:27 "Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you; for upon this one the Father, [the] God [ho theos], has put his seal [of approval]".

John 8:41,42 "You do the works of your father.” They said to him: “We were not born from fornication; we have one Father, [the] God [ton theon].” Jesus said to them: “If [the] God [ho theos] were your Father, you would love me, for from [the] God [tou theou] I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth."

John 9:29 "We know that [the] God [ho theos] has spoken to Moses; but as for this [man], we do not know where he is from.”

John 9:31 "We know that [the] God [ho theos] does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one."

John 11:22 "And yet at present I know that as many things as you ask [the] God [ton theon] for, [the] God [ho theos] will give you."

John 13:3 "[Jesus], knowing that the Father had given all things into [his] hands and that he came forth from God and was going to [the] God [pros ton theon]"

John 13:31,32 "Hence when [Judas] had gone out, Jesus said: “Now the Son of man is glorified, and [the] God [ho theos] is glorified in connection with him. And [the] God [ho theos] will himself glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately."

John 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in [the] God [ton theon], exercise faith also in me."

John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God [ton monon alethinon theon], and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

John 21:19 "This [Jesus] said to signify by what sort of death he would glorify [the] God [ton theon]. So, when he had said this, he said to [Peter]: “Continue following me.”

Thanks, again, for clarifying this matter.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

@ aqwsed12345 :

Thank you for your discussion of John 20:28 in response to my question, but I'm still not quite sure how you understand ho theos. In response you said :

While ho theos generally refers to the Father (just like ho kyrios generally refers to Christ in the NT), it is also used for Jesus in contexts that affirm His divine nature (cf. Hebrews 1:8). ... It was only the ignorant linguists of the Watchtower Society who invented that ... only ho theos denotes the proper sense God.

The Watchtower Society has never claimed that "only ho theos denotes the proper sense God", but I am more interested in how you understand it. Hart said, regarding ho theos, (@ 44:40) that "there is a reticence about this right up until very late, several centuries along, ever to use the term ho theos for anyone other than the Father".

In John 1:1 it says that the Word was "with [the] God" [pros ton theon]. It seems to me that this is a clear case where ho theos/ton theon refers to the Father only. But I am not sure whether you understand it that way. Do you understand it is saying the Word was with the Father, or if not, what do you understand ton theon means in this context?

Do you ever understand ho theos refers only to the Father? I have listed below all the cases of "the God" (either ho theos or ton theon) in the Gospel of John, excluding genitive and dative cases as that would just make the list too long. If you think that any of them refer only to the Father, can you indicate which verses. Or if you think most of them refer only to the Father, perhaps you could indicate which verses don't.

John 1:1 "... the Word was with [the] God [ton theon] ..."

John 1:2 "This one was in the beginning with [the] God [ton theon]"

John 3:16,17 "For [the] God [ho theos] loved the world ... For [the] God [ho theos] sent forth his Son ..."

John 3:33 " ... that [the] God [ho theos] is true".

John 3:34 "For the one whom [the] God [ho theos] sent forth ..."

John 4:24 "[The] God [ho theos] is a spirit ..."

John 5:18 "... calling [the] God [ton theon] his own Father, ...".

John 6:27 " ... for upon this one the Father, [the] God [ho theos], has put his seal [of approval]".

John 8:41,42 "... we have one Father, [the] God [ton theon]... If [the] God [ho theos] were your Father ..."

John 9:29 "We know that [the] God [ho theos] has spoken to Moses ..."

John 9:31 "We know that [the] God [ho theos] does not listen to sinners, ..."

John 11:22 "... as many things as you ask [the] God [ton theon] for, [the] God [ho theos] will give you."

John 13:3 "[Jesus], knowing that ... he was going to [the] God [pros ton theon]"

John 13:31,32 "... [the] God [ho theos] is glorified in connection with [the Son of man]. And [the] God [ho theos] will himself glorify [the Son of man] ..."

John 14:1 "Exercise faith in [the] God [ton theon], exercise faith also in me."

John 17:3 "... the only true God [ton monon alethinon theon]"

John 20:28 "...My Lord and my God" [literally, "The Lord of me and the God [ho theos] of me"]

John 21:19 "This he said to signify by what sort of death he would glorify [the] God [ton theon] ..."

Please be assured I am just trying to understand how a trinitarian can consistently understand the way John writes about [the] God. Thanks for your assistance.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

A couple of responses back, here, aqwsed12345 responded with 694 words less than three minutes after peacefulpete's post.

Nevertheless, one thought I have often wondered about regarding John 20:28 (where Thomas says "My Lord and my God [ho theos mou = the god of me]" is why trinitarians don't have a problem if this identifies Jesus as God the Father. Isn't that modalism? ho theos is generally used with reference to "the God" i.e. God the Father. Why would Thomas exclaim "my God" with reference to God the Father when he was convinced of Jesus's resurrection? No wonder David Bentley Hart acknowledges it could have just been a fervent expression.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

TTWSYF : Apologies to you both as I stand corrected!

Thank you for your gracious apology. It takes a lot of humility to admit when a mistake has been made.

There was a previous discussion about Jason BeDuhn at a time when most contributors were both scholarly and gracious. A poster, Ginny Tosken, wrote to Dr BeDuhn and the exchange between them as well as comments by AlanF, hillary_step and other giants from the past are well worth reading. The thread is Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT.

45

GB Update - Meet the new GB members

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

i overheard my wife listening to '2023 governing body update #2, presented by kenneth cook jnr.

a few points i got from it.. new hour requirements.

quote "with the new hour requirements for pioneers, many us us can share in the pioneer work.

Earnest

Vanderhoven7 : Here is a cool picture of the ... only ones God has mandated as his spokesman.

Geoffrey Jackson said, at the ARC, it "would seem quite presumptuous to say that".

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

TTWSYF : Dr. Jason [BeDuhn] never endorses the New World translation.

In his book, Truth in Translation, 2003, Dr. BeDuhn compares nine different translations for accuracy and bias in the NT - King James Version, (New) Revised Standard Version, New International Version, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, Amplified Bible, Living Bible, Today's English Version, and New World Translation.

In his conclusion he says (p.163) :

While it is difficult to quantify this sort of analysis, it can be said that the NW emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared. Holding a close second to the NW in its accuracy, judging by the passages we have looked at, is the NAB. Both of these are translations produced by single denominations of Christianity. Despite their distinctive doctrinal commitments, the translators managed to produce works relatively more accurate and less biased than the translations produced by multi-denominational teams, as well as those produced by single individuals.

Again, sorry, but those are the facts.

18

IICSA Final Report

by Phizzy in

the english legal system's independent inquiry into child sexual abuse has issued its final report, and its recommendations.

to read the report in full just google iicsa report, if you search on the iicsa site you can find the specific investigation into j.w's.. but this recommendation from the final report is interesting, esp.

the first and last sentences.

Earnest

The Home Secretary in the UK, Yvette Cooper, has announced today in Parliament that it will be mandatory for professionals in a position of trust – including teachers, doctors, priests and social workers – to report child sexual abuse that they know of. This will be implemented in the Crime & Policing Bill this Spring and failure to report will become a criminal offence.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

TTWSYF : NO SCHOLARLY ORGANIZATION INCLUDING ANY COLLEGES OR UNIVERSITIES RECOGNIZES THE NWT AS A LEGIT TRANSLATION….sorry, but that’s the facts

In most cases, bible translations are decided by particular lecturers or departments. When the department or lecturer is affiliated with a particular religious view then it is likely they will use a translation sympathetic to their view.

However, there is an FAQ discussing whether the NWT is accurate and that includes positive comments about the NWT from non-Witness scholars. One of these is Jason BeDuhn who is currently Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. He wrote a letter to Watchtower in 1998 when he was Associate Professor of Religious Studies and Chair of the Department of Humanities, Arts and Religion at Northern Arizona University. In the letter he said :

“I have just completed teaching a course for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana University, Bloomington, [U.S.A.] . . . This is primarily a course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form of copies of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as one of the textbooks for the class. These small volumes were invaluable to the course and very popular with my students.”

Why does Dr. BeDuhn use the Kingdom Interlinear translation in his college courses? He answers:

“Simply put, it is the best interlinear New Testament available. I am a trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies, and, by the way, not a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But I know a quality publication when I see one, and your ‘New World Bible Translation Committee’ has done its job well. Your interlinear English rendering is accurate and consistent to an extreme that forces the reader to come to terms with the linguistic, cultural, and conceptual gaps between the Greek-speaking world and our own. Your ‘New World Translation’ is a high quality, literal translation that avoids traditional glosses in its faithfulness to the Greek. It is, in many ways, superior to the most successful translations in use today.”

Sorry, but that's the facts.