Posts by Earnest

15

What Do They Have in Common?: Covington/ Muhammed Ali / Disfellowship policy

by Terry in

covington / muhammed ali / disfellowship (what do they have in common?

)“hayden c. covington, one of the most influential figures in the history of first amendment law.

beyond the numerous first amendment cases he argued or co-argued in the supreme court, he also prevailed on behalf of the witnesses in over “100 decisions handed down by various state supreme courts, and .

Earnest

EdenOne,

The article "Use Theocratic War Strategy" in the 1957 Watchtower (5/1 pp. 285-286) refers to the 1956 Watchtower (2/1 pp. 76-90) in the footnotes.

The 1956 Watchtower contains the study article "Cautious as Serpents Among Wolves" which spends fifty paragraphs discussing how we are to be cautious as serpents with many Bible examples. It uses the expression "war strategy" five times, and the word "strategy" fourteen times (including "war strategy") in the article. This was a positive endorsement of what has become known as theocratic strategy or warfare.

54

Allegheny Pyramid Desecrated

by RolRod in

sometime within the last 2 weeks, someone took a sledgehammer to the pyramid monument in allegheny.

they stole the topstone, smashed the cross and crown emblem and removed the seal.. personally i'm surprised it lasted this long untouched.

although through the years russell's grave has been vandalized, it was always repaired by the bible students..

Earnest

Slidin Fast, Russell's grave with head stone is still near to the site where the pyramid was, as can be seen in this video.

here.

99

onacruise - Craig Mills 1952-2011

by Lady Lee in

jw
friends

i was given the link to a bit of information regarding on old poster/moderator of this forum.

i was not sure of the validity of the information so have been trying to find out if it is true.. earlier today craig's estranged wife, kate, (bikerchic) confirmed that craig died at his home on aug 10, 2011.. i am sure that many people here remember craig's time here and how he went out of his way to offer support to posters, even calling them, to give whatever help he could as they adjusted to their post-jw lives.. i know many people here will grieve his loss.. --------------.

ps i tried posting this earlier but the computer i was working with would not allow the posts.

Earnest

In that case I'll try again. There have been many on this site who have influenced me through the years but most have remained behind the internet wall. Craig went out of his way and added the human touch by phoning and talking about things for hours. He also shared a lot of his personal life, including his marriage, on JWD. I know that there are many others who have passed and who should also be remembered, but each year I try to remind the board of this scholar, saint and sinner all roled into one who we had in our midst and lost too soon.

25

Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says - BBC News

by ballistic in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270.

this item just featured on the bbc lunchtime news today as the headline story and the piece included a reporter who singled out jehovah's witnesses for discussion from the 30 organisations covered by the report.

the news item then went on to feature an extensive interview ex elder and ex jehovah's witness writer lloyd evans..

Earnest

Hi jhine, your questions are natural given the limited information I provided and I certainly don't think you are confrontational.

I was not familiar with the details of this case but did know it concerned an allegation in 2006. My post was a response to Biahi's statement that they were liars in saying to the IICSA that their current policy is mandatory reporting "if a kid is in danger".

The case against the two elders for not reporting the abuse was scheduled for July 28 this year but the State requested it be postponed until September 23. So, we will know more then whether anyone cared and whether they acted responsibly. However, I have managed to piece together some details of the case from reports in the Chicago Tribune on 23 October 2019 and 20 December 2019.

I should note that what happened to this little girl over a period of nearly thirteen years is chilling and heart-wrenching, but in answering the question about the time it took for the elders to report the abuse we have to ask what they knew and when they knew it. According to the girl's testimony the abuse by a family member started in 2005 when she was 6. At some point she told her mother of the abuse and on 27 July 2006 the elders of the congregation were informed. They intervened and the abuse stopped for a short time. But soon the assaults started up again and escalated. The perpetrator threatened her that if she ever reported the assaults again he would kill her, her mother and her brother. I understand from the newspaper account that she didn't report the ongoing abuse to anyone again until October 2018 which was when the elders reported it to the police.

How could no-one know what was going on. There are two paragraphs in the October 2019 newspaper report which explain it :

Hernandez-Pedraza’s attorney, Assistant Public Defender Angelo Mourelatos, told jurors in opening statements that the girl at one point lived in the basement of a home with 10 people and no one reported seeing or hearing anything.

The girl later moved to an apartment with her family but said the assaults continued and intensified. She said the assaults occurred in the daytime when no one else was home and many times, as she got older, Hernandez-Pedraza made her take a pregnancy test.

In trying to understand the course the elders took I am not minimising the gravity of any form of abuse of a 6-year-old girl. But the elders claim that while the "most serious" acts occurred between 2013 and 2018, they knew nothing beyond the initial allegation they heard on 27 July 2006.

So, it isn't a case of the elders knowing of ongoing abuse for thirteen years and not reporting it to the authorities, but one where they immediately took action within the congregation when they first heard of it in 2006 and believed the abuse had ended. That doesn't let anyone off the hook but it makes it more understandable on a human level.

25

Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says - BBC News

by ballistic in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270.

this item just featured on the bbc lunchtime news today as the headline story and the piece included a reporter who singled out jehovah's witnesses for discussion from the 30 organisations covered by the report.

the news item then went on to feature an extensive interview ex elder and ex jehovah's witness writer lloyd evans..

Earnest

Vidiot, when Paul Gillies testified before the Commission, p.40, he said that if the inquiry recommends a form of mandatory reporting and parliament agrees, then Jehovah's Witnesses will comply with whatever the terms are of the mandatory reporting law, as they currently do in the country of Ireland.

Section H.2 (para. 36) of the IICSA report on "Matters to be explored further by the Inquiry" says that mandatory reporting as well as vetting and barring will be addressed in the final report.

Personally, I think that the Watchtower Society and most elders would prefer it to be mandatory because then everyone knows where they stand. If it was mandatory and you tell an elder of child sexual abuse, either now or in the distant past, then you know the secular authorities would be informed. In my personal opinion I don't think that is always a good thing because it may mean that some who were sexually abused in their childhood and are now suffering mental, emotional and spiritual trauma as a result, will just keep it to themselves rather than risk the added trauma of recalling the details for a police investigation and the subsequent publicity. That will be of no help to the victim or to the wider society who will remain ignorant of the abuse.

25

Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says - BBC News

by ballistic in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270.

this item just featured on the bbc lunchtime news today as the headline story and the piece included a reporter who singled out jehovah's witnesses for discussion from the 30 organisations covered by the report.

the news item then went on to feature an extensive interview ex elder and ex jehovah's witness writer lloyd evans..

Earnest

Biahi, the policy that is referred to is Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection and was published in 2018, and is available on the website.

The Illinois elders became aware of possible child sexual abuse in July 2006 and the congregation were warned not to leave their children alone with the perpetrator. It was reported to the police in 2018 when the victim told the elders the abuse had not stopped.

So while we know this hasn't always been the policy it has been since 2018.

slimboyfat : where is this policy stated in print?

The policy which Paul Gillies refers to can be found on the website here. Item 5 in particular states :

When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1) Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the other parent.

The "Shepherd the Flock of God" book in chapter 14 on child abuse says two elders should immediately call the Legal Department when they learn of an accusation of child abuse. A call should be made even when both persons involved are minors. The elders must make the call themselves.

The branch office would be able to assess whether children in the congregation were at risk by questioning the elders at length. However, I completely agree with you that does not take account of those outside the congregation. I am not endorsing the policy I am simply telling you what it is.

25

Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says - BBC News

by ballistic in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270.

this item just featured on the bbc lunchtime news today as the headline story and the piece included a reporter who singled out jehovah's witnesses for discussion from the 30 organisations covered by the report.

the news item then went on to feature an extensive interview ex elder and ex jehovah's witness writer lloyd evans..

Earnest

slimboyfat : I don’t think JWs do have a policy of mandatory reporting.

Under current procedures elders are required to report it to the statutory authorities if there is reason to believe a child is "in danger of abuse". This is established when they call the Legal Department and Service Department of the Central Branch Office which they are obliged to do for any allegation of child sexual abuse (See para. 50 of the IICSA report).

So, mandatory reporting when a child is at risk.

Why only then? Paul Gillies explained when he appeared before the Commission that it could be an adult victim, it could be something which happened to them prior to being a Witness, they may not want to go through the trauma of being interviewed by the police, or repeat it in a court setting, and the elders would respect their choice in the matter. In such cases the elders do not have the authority to insist it be reported when a child is not at risk.

AFRIKANMAN : So what did the IICSA actually achieve ?

The report concluded with the following recommendation for religious organisations :

All religious organisations should have a child protection policy and supporting procedures, which should include advice and guidance on responding to disclosures of abuse and the needs of victims and survivors. The policy and procedures should be updated regularly, with professional child protection advice, and all organisations should have regular compulsory training for those in leadership positions and those who work with children and young people

Religious organisations should publish responses to these recommendations, including the timetable involved, within six months of the publication of the report.

Mandatory reporting, vetting and barring, regulation of the voluntary sector in respect of religious organisations and settings, and introducing primary legislation to provide that voluntary settings adhere to basic child protection standards will be addressed in the final report.

35

Jehovah Witnesses lost in Court. Disfellowshipped Sister Reinstated by Court Order?

by pistolpete in

imagine the "faithful" jws who are now having to talk to this person by court order or face the consequences----legally.. exjws are spreading the news and now some exjws who have been disfellowshipped for years are starting to research to see if this is an option in their country.

here are the articles, you need to translate in google.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/gry-nygard-ble-ekskludert-fra-jehovas-vitner-_-vant-i-lagmannsretten-1.15570621.

Earnest

Diogenesister : Just to say, the victim is a believing Jehovah's witness and that explains why she would not involve the man in the case, nor prosecute him, since he is a "brother".

Sorry, Dio, I don't buy it. Paul's injunction about not taking a brother to court is referring to fraud, to "very trivial matters", not to a criminal case. The Watchtower has made it quite clear in the matter of child sexual abuse that there are no restrictions in taking the matter to the police, and I don't see that raping a sleeping woman (if that is what took place) is any different insofar as prosecuting the man is concerned. I can believe she did not want to prosecute him if he is a friend and remains so, but both the judicial committee and the appeal committee asked her whether she felt she had been raped or sexually assaulted and she repeatedly answered in the negative so that may have something to do with it too.

Diogenesister : Watchtower broke some very specifically Norwegian laws ...

I am no lawyer and I especially do not know Norwegian law, but judging from what was said in the case notes this is a unique application of the law and is not what it was intended for. The provision in Section 10 of the Religious Communities Act of 1969 has never before this case been brought before, or applied, by a court regarding the exclusion of a congregant. It is normally applied if an employer threatens to dismiss any employee who did not want to enter his religious community. As I say, I can only go by what I read in the case but it is clear this law has never before been applied in this way.

35

Jehovah Witnesses lost in Court. Disfellowshipped Sister Reinstated by Court Order?

by pistolpete in

imagine the "faithful" jws who are now having to talk to this person by court order or face the consequences----legally.. exjws are spreading the news and now some exjws who have been disfellowshipped for years are starting to research to see if this is an option in their country.

here are the articles, you need to translate in google.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/gry-nygard-ble-ekskludert-fra-jehovas-vitner-_-vant-i-lagmannsretten-1.15570621.

Earnest

Anony Mous, most of what you say above about this case is false.

Anony Mous : ... apparently the court also found the elders lied to the courts about what happened in the judicial committee meetings

The Majority Opinion, Section 4

The presentation of evidence in the District Court and the Court of Appeal has revealed divergent explanations from the members of the Judicial Committee and the Appeals Committee about what they believe A has acknowledged and what they believe she has committed. Certain differences are foreseeable from the time [two years] that has passed.

That is far different to suggesting that they lied which, if it were true, would result in a charge of perjury.

Anony Mous : One elder for example said a judicial committee does not go into details in these cases, which is an outright lie

The Minority Opinion, Section 3

D (district court judge): So did she say anything more about how the situation with having oral sex occurred?

N1: No, we actually try when we are a judicial committee, not to go on and almost elaborate in every detail. So when you face a person who says [there was oral sex], we do not dig into it anymore. I think it's quite obvious that when you get such an account of it, and use that expression, then we did not dig more than that.

Anony Mous : ... while the other described the judicial committee going into extreme detail about the types of intercourse and how much of her body was naked.

The Majority Opinion, Section 4

Judicial committee member N4 explained to the district court that the specific sin in this case was intercourse. When asked further why he assumed that there had been intercourse, he replied that A did not say that she had had intercourse, but that she had explained that she was completely or partially undressed and that things had happened that she herself described as immorality or «porneia».

The fact that N4 explains that "things had happened" that she described as immorality supports what N1 said above that they didn't dig into the details. The fact is that the decision to disfellowship was detached from whether she was asleep at the time or not, as shown below.

Anony Mous: Every elder seemed to indicate that they believe she was indeed raped

None of the elders said they believed she was raped, and even the court refused to say that she had been raped.

The Minority Opinion, Section 3

Given that A did not want to involve the man in the case, neither the judicial nor the appeal committee had any opportunity to test whether A had in fact been subjected to sexual abuse. According to A's explanation, she had no recollection that anything sexual had taken place between the two. However, she was surprised that she fell asleep in the hotel room and first woke up naked approx. at 11.30 the next day. Neither then nor since has A reported the case to the police. She has also not found it opportune to involve the man as a witness in the case before the courts. In such a situation, in the minority's view, it would be contrary to basic legal security standards for the protection of the man to find it proven that she had been raped by him.

Anony Mous: but that [being raped] constitutes 'porneia' because she put herself in the situation

The Minority Opinion, Section 3

Based on an overall assessment of the circumstances that led to A having dinner with the man, the consumption of alcohol both during dinner and later, her description of kissing, caressing, touching and the subsequent circumstances [staying the night in his room], held up against the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses about sexual immorality, the Judicial Committee and later the Appeals Committee found it necessary to exclude A.

It was an overall assessment of the circumstances that led both committees to conclude that she had engaged in porneia. Considering that simply staying overnight with someone of the opposite sex can be grounds for a judicial committee, she added alcohol, kissing, caressing, touching, sleeping in the same bed ... and she didn't know what she had done wrong until she woke up naked. And then they had breakfast together, and a few days after the committee meeting she calls her ex-husband and tells him he is free to remarry.

14