Posts by Earnest

24

Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....

by BoogerMan in

....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.

2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.

in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.

Earnest

I can go into some detail about the "evidence" for Polycarp's Letter to the Phillipians.

Nine late Greek manuscripts are extant, all of them belong to the same family and all lack chapters 10-14. These are :

codex Vaticanus 859 (11th-13th century)
codex Ottobonianus 348 (14th-16th century)
codex Laurent. vii. 21 (15th-16th century)
codex Parisiensis Graec. 937 (16th century)
codex Casanatensis G. v. 14 (15th century)
codex Barberinus 7
codex Neapolitanus II. A. 17 (15th century)
codex Salmasianus
codex Andrius

For chapters 10-14 we are reliant on a Latin translation of which we have nine manuscripts:

Codex Reginensis 81 (11th century)
codex Trecensis 412 (12th century)
codex Paris. Bibl. Nat. 1639 (12th century)
codex Bruxellensis 5510 (12th century)
codex Oxon. Balliolensis 229 (12th century)
codex Palatinus 150 (15th century)
codex Laurent. xxiii. Cod. 20 (15th century)
codex Vindobonensis 1068 (14th century)
codex Oxon. Magdalenensis 76 (15th century)

That's it. Eighteen extant manuscripts and nothing earlier than the 11th century.

24

Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....

by BoogerMan in

....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.

2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.

in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : On the other hand, If such evidence appears too early, then heretics are astonished at the early evidence and wonder if hundreds of pages of historical documents were carefully and dishonestly redacted.

Maybe you misunderstood what I said about Polycarp's Letter to the Phillipians. There is no early evidence. In fact, chapters 10-14 don't appear in any Greek manuscripts. Likewise, there is no early evidence of Ignatius's letters with the only Greek manuscript being dated to the eleventh century.

24

Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....

by BoogerMan in

....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.

2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.

in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.

Earnest

Ignatius's Letters to the Ephesians, the Romans, the Smyrnaeans, and Polycarp

Although Ignatius lived in the early second century, whether he wrote the letters attributed to him has been in doubt for many years.

There are three revisions of the letters attributed to Ignatius: the long recension, the middle recension and the short recension. The long recension was created in the fourth century and consists of thirteen letters, six of which are spurious. The short recension is a Syriac abridgment of the letters to the Ephesians, the Romans and Polycarp, but only a few fragments are preserved. The middle recension consists of seven letters generally recognised as authentic, but the only extant copy of the middle recension (codex Mediceo-Laurentianus) is dated to the eleventh century, 900 years after Ignatius wrote his letters, and was subject to interpolation and omission.

It is hardly surprising with so much evidence of changing the text that some verses would reflect the theology of the fourth century and beyond.

24

Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....

by BoogerMan in

....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.

2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.

in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.

Earnest

The extensive list of quotations from early Church fathers which apparently support the belief that Jesus is God is impressive even though it is just a cut and paste from this article. For such a high christology to emerge so early in the writings of the Church fathers does require us to ask how reliable these citations are and whether there is evidence of later interpolation after the creeds of the fourth and fifth centuries.

Polycarp's Letter to the Phillipians, 12:2

J. B. Lightfoot writes in the Apostolic Fathers (2.1.546-551; 2.3.316-318) that chapters 10-14 are in no Greek manuscripts but are dependent on a Latin translation which is very loose at times, and paraphrastic. There are also some scattered Syriac quotations, none earlier than the fifth century.

As far as the quotation ("our Lord and God Jesus Christ") is concerned, many manuscripts omit the words "and God" in the phrase.

27

Did the Watchtower Society ban Vaccinations and Organ Transplants?

by Vanderhoven7 in

an avid wts supporter writes:.

re: vaccinations: vaccinations have never been banned.

if they were, then no representative of the wts would have been allowed to travel overseas when vaccines were compulsory around 1920 when vaccines was regularly in the news, there was both positive and negative information printed in the golden age (forerunner of the awake) but not from the staff writers, but from out side sources of article by medical doctors at the time and others that responded to those articles.. re: organ transplants: organ transplants were never forbidden by the society.

Earnest

Just a small note on organ transplants. In the same 1967 Watchtower article which described human organ transplants as cannibalistic, it also said :

At present scientific researchers are starting to use artificial or animal parts where formerly human parts were thought necessary, such as in the case of cornea transplants. ... Whether wider use of such operations will be made, we do not know. Nor can we decide whether a Christian should accept some animal part as a transplant; that is for personal decision. (Gal. 6:5)

So it would be true to say that "organ transplants have always been up to the individual". It is only the transplanting of human organs which it was thought that God did not permit.

27

Did the Watchtower Society ban Vaccinations and Organ Transplants?

by Vanderhoven7 in

an avid wts supporter writes:.

re: vaccinations: vaccinations have never been banned.

if they were, then no representative of the wts would have been allowed to travel overseas when vaccines were compulsory around 1920 when vaccines was regularly in the news, there was both positive and negative information printed in the golden age (forerunner of the awake) but not from the staff writers, but from out side sources of article by medical doctors at the time and others that responded to those articles.. re: organ transplants: organ transplants were never forbidden by the society.

Earnest

slimboyfat : There were certainly strong statements in the Watchtower against organ transplants, but I don’t know any concrete statement that it was a disfellowshipping offence.

There was no concrete statement that accepting an organ transplant was a disfellowshipping offence. But The Watchtower, 15 November 1967, p.702 did state :

Those who submit to [organ transplants] are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic. However, in allowing man to eat animal flesh Jehovah God did not grant permission for humans to try to perpetuate their lives by cannibalistically taking into their bodies human flesh, whether chewed or in the form of whole organs or body parts taken from others.

That was sufficient for most Witnesses to believe that human organ transplants were contrary to God's will until 1980 when it was made clear it is a matter of conscience.

34

1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today

by enoughisenough in

i am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.

i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.

in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.

Earnest

Disillusioned JW : When were the words "spirit directed" taken out of the oath of baptism

The September 2017 edition of Organized to Do Jehovah's Will (p.209) still has the second baptism question referring to God's spirit-directed organization. In the August 2019 edition (p.206) the second question refers to Jehovah's organization instead.

34

1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today

by enoughisenough in

i am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.

i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.

in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.

Earnest

FedUpJW : Whom do Jehovah's Witnesses bow down to? To Jehovah, or to the governing body?

The excerpt that you quote from the Revelation book where it says the great crowd "bow down" to the anointed slave should be read in context. At the beginning of the section "They Will Bow Down to You", page 60 para.11, it reads:

Hence, Jesus promises [the congregation in Philadelphia] fruitage: "Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying - look! I will make them come and do obeisance before your feet [bow down before your feet, ESV, NASB] and make them know I have loved you." (Revelation 3:9) ... Their 'doing obeisance' will likely be in the manner described by Paul at 1 Corinthians 14:24, 25, so that they actually repent and become Christians, fully appreciating Jesus' great love in surrendering even his soul in behalf of his disciples. - John 15:12, 13.

So, references to bowing down are echoing what the scripture says at Revelation 3:9, and refer to the congregation of anointed Christians, not just the governing body. Remember that at the time the Revelation book was written, the "slave" was understood to be all anointed Christians remaining on earth.

34

1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today

by enoughisenough in

i am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.

i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.

in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.

Earnest

smiddy, the two baptism questions in 1960 were (The Watchtower, July 1, 1956, p.407) :

1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ?

2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?

In view of The Watchtower, July 1, 1955, p.411, it was not unusual to be reminded in the baptism talk that you were not symbolizing your dedication to a man, or to an organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit.

56

Senior JW member in Australia charged with sex crimes and torture

by Nathan Natas in

see: https://7news.com.au/news/crime/senior-jehovahs-witnesses-member-charged-with-rape-torture-and-assault-of-teenage-boys-c-8044666.

"senior jehovah’s witnesses member charged with rape, torture and assault of teenage boys...".

the 61 year-old man "faces 21 counts of rape, 17 counts of sexual assault, 13 counts of procuring sexual acts by false pretence and one count each of incest, torture and common assault.".

Earnest

Rivergang : Of course, it’s all just “Apostate Lies”!

Let's see what the Court decides. Certainly, if "multiple videos of his sexual offences" are presented in Court there will be no doubt of his guilt, but at the moment this is "alleged".

The ABC news report says that "police allege two of the victims tried to report to religious elders and 'were chastised, not believed and ostracised' and accused of being homosexual, before they went to police."

If there were two witnesses there would have to be a judicial committee. The alleged offences occurred between 2008-2018 and, after the ARC (2013-2017) and the Child Safeguarding Policy of Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia (March 2017), the elders would know the ramifications of allowing someone to remain in a position of trust after abusing children.

In this post-ARC age it doesn't ring true.