Posts by Earnest

88

New method to absolutely date Fall of Jerusalem.

by waton in

for what it is worth to those interested.

1914.. tel-aviv university.

"biblical military campaigns reconstructed using geomagnetic field data.

Earnest

Fisherman : That doesn’t sound very scientific if the assumed date has any bearing on the accuracy of the results.

The assumed date is not only based on the historically reliable biblical descriptions. It is also determined by a variety of other means which include records of the Babylonian campaigns, stamped jar handles and other archaeological evidence as discussed by Oded Lipschitz and others.

If you are interested, the two articles in the journal Zeitschrift des Deutschen Palästina-Vereins are:

The Rosette stamped jar handle system and the Kingdom of Judah at the end of the First Temple Period. ZDP 2013;129:1–23; and

The Settlement on the Southwestern Hill of Jerusalem at the End of the Iron Age: A Reconstruction Based on the Archaeological Evidence. ZDP. 2006;122(2):140–50.

88

New method to absolutely date Fall of Jerusalem.

by waton in

for what it is worth to those interested.

1914.. tel-aviv university.

"biblical military campaigns reconstructed using geomagnetic field data.

Earnest

The original article (Reconstructing biblical military campaigns using geomagnetic field data) in the October 24, 2022 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences can be read here.

Explaining the method used it says:

The Hebrew Bible and other ancient Near Eastern texts describe Egyptian, Aramean, Assyrian, and Babylonian military campaigns to the Southern Levant during the 10th to sixth centuries BCE. Indeed, many destruction layers dated to this period have been unearthed in archaeological excavations. Several of these layers are securely linked to specific campaigns and are widely accepted as chronological anchors. However, the dating of many other destruction layers is often debated, challenging the ability to accurately reconstruct the different military campaigns and raising questions regarding the historicity of the biblical narrative.

The destruction of Jerusalem as one of those chronological anchors is based on an earlier article (The Earth's magnetic field in Jerusalem during the Babylonian destruction: A unique reference for field behavior and an anchor for archaeomagnetic dating) in the August 7, 2020 issue of PLoS One (PLoS = Public Library of Science) journal, which can be accessed here.

In that article it says :

Unlike biblical sources regarding earlier periods, the detailed biblical descriptions regarding the end of the Iron Age and specifically the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 BCE are considered historically reliable by the vast majority of researchers.

In support it cites The fall and rise of Jerusalem: Judah under Babylonian rule (2005) by Oded Lipschits and two articles in the journal Zeitschrift des Deutschen Palästina-Vereins.

So the date of 586 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem is not based on archaeomagnetic dating, but it is used as an anchor because it is considered historically reliable. The diagram below of field intensity results does help to give an idea of sequence but the dating is based on the anchors.

Yes, I know that's what slim said yesterday, far more succinctly than I have done, but I thought it would be of interest to read the original articles.

88

New method to absolutely date Fall of Jerusalem.

by waton in

for what it is worth to those interested.

1914.. tel-aviv university.

"biblical military campaigns reconstructed using geomagnetic field data.

Earnest

I remember reading an article about this at the time and was excited about an alternative to carbon dating the destruction of Jerusalem as that's not very reliable during that period. However, I concluded that geomagnetic field data doesn't change that often that a year, or even twenty years, makes a difference. For example, in the article in ScienceDaily referred to above it says :

A destruction level at Tel Beth-Shean, on the other hand, recording a totally different magnetic field, refutes the prevailing hypothesis that it too was destroyed by Hazael. Instead, the magnetic data from Beth-Shean indicate that this city, along with two other sites in northern Israel, was probably destroyed 70-100 years earlier, a date which could correspond with the military campaign of the Egyptian Pharaoh Shoshenq.

The article explains how geomagnetic dating works :

The geomagnetic field is generated by earth's outer core, at a depth of 2,900 km, by currents of liquid iron. Due to the chaotic motion of this iron, the magnetic field changes over time. Until recently scientists believed that it remains quite stable for decades, but archaeomagnetic research has contradicted this assumption by revealing some extreme and unpredictable changes in antiquity.

As the motion of the liquid iron is unpredictable, the magnetic field can remain stable for decades but there can also be unpredictable changes. To account for this a variation curve of field intensity over time has been constructed so this may help but I have reservations due to the "extreme and unpredictable" changes of liquid iron in motion.

9

and early judicial committee with Rutherford

by neat blue dog in

while disfellowshipping was doubled down on and reinforced during the time of raymond franz, it definitely existed before that when needed and fits right in with rutherford's personality.

here's an account of norman woodworth who left for dawn bible students, and his proto-judicial committee.

all the modern hallmarks of apostasy trials are there, from the witch-hunt nature to the big all-important gotcha question at the end:.

Earnest

Samcats : Related to Clayton Woodworth?

The Who's Who of the IBSA records that "it appears there is no family relationship [of William Norman Woodworth] with Clayton James Woodworth."

However, I think they probably are distantly related.

According to Norman Woodworth's Memoirs, when he arrived at Brooklyn [from Winnipeg, Manitoba] "I enquired of Brother C.J. Woodworth ... as to why he had brought me from Winnipeg back to New York."
When Norman Woodworth's father (who had by now moved from Nova Scotia to Eastern Pennsylvania) died, "Brother Clayton J. Woodworth came to take charge of the funeral service" in their home.
Also, after Norman Woodworth had left Bethel and joined the Associated Bible Students of Brooklyn, "we received a letter from Brother Clayton J. Woodworth ... It was a kindly letter. He recognised that what he had heard of our program was the truth, and he urged us to return to our former association and to continue our work there rather than to work with those he considered to be disloyal brethren."

All this suggests to me a very personal interest of Clayton Woodworth in Norman Woodworth and his family, perhaps a cousin of his father (Clayton W was 21 years older than Norman Woodworth).

12

Not Reporting Child Abuse Should Be Prosecuted

by usualusername1 in

jw
friends

anyone who works with children and does not report child sexual abuse should be prosecuted, the final report of a huge, seven-year inquiry has recommended.. this could be huge for elders in the uk.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63318342.

Earnest

Diogenesister : Elders are in a position of trust. Surely you are not suggesting they aren't?

The recommendation of the Inquiry is that any person working in a position of trust (as defined by the Sexual Offences Act 2003, as amended) should be a mandated reporter.

Section 21 of the Sexual Offences Act defines what a "position of trust" is, and on that basis I was saying that elders are not in a position of trust as defined by the Sexual Offences Act. However, section 22A (which was inserted on 28.6.2022) defines further positions of trust and this states :

(1) ... a person (A) is in a position of trust in relation to another person (B) if —
(a) A coaches, teaches, trains, supervises or instructs B, on a regular basis, in a sport or a religion, and
(b) A knows that they coach, teach, train, supervise or instruct B, on a regular basis, in that sport or religion.

On this basis I must withdraw my conclusion that Jehovah's Witnesses are not included in the definition of "a position of trust". In fact, it seems to me that this would include anyone conducting a Bible study. Thanks, Dio.

9

and early judicial committee with Rutherford

by neat blue dog in

while disfellowshipping was doubled down on and reinforced during the time of raymond franz, it definitely existed before that when needed and fits right in with rutherford's personality.

here's an account of norman woodworth who left for dawn bible students, and his proto-judicial committee.

all the modern hallmarks of apostasy trials are there, from the witch-hunt nature to the big all-important gotcha question at the end:.

Earnest

Norman Woodworth's Memoirs in full can be read here.

This episode concluded as follows :

I was warned by Brother Rutherford that most of those who had left the Society had engaged in nothing but slandering and misrepresenting him. I assured him that while I had no idea of what I would do, I knew I would have something more important to occupy my time than to talk about him. This was about midmorning, and I was denied the privilege of even remaining there for lunch. He told me that he would announce to the brethren that I was a traitor and issue orders that none of them were to speak to me under any circumstances or have any dealings with me.

In this connection, I well remember a time later when in Brooklyn that I met a group of my former friends as they were walking home for lunch, and as we passed they kept their faces set like flint straight ahead. For some reason, after they had gone by and I continued on my course, I just turned around to look at them, and then I noticed that one of the brothers was putting his hand out behind him waving to me. I knew then that they, too, were feeling the bondage.

On a personal note, Norman Woodworth initiated the Frank and Earnest radio Bible program in the late 1920's where an “earnest” seeker after truth would ask questions about the Bible or world events. A student of the Bible would give “frank” answers from the Word of God. When he subsequently joined the Associated Bible Students of Brooklyn he continued the radio program with them.

12

Not Reporting Child Abuse Should Be Prosecuted

by usualusername1 in

jw
friends

anyone who works with children and does not report child sexual abuse should be prosecuted, the final report of a huge, seven-year inquiry has recommended.. this could be huge for elders in the uk.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63318342.

Earnest

The full report can be read here.

As far as mandatory reporting is concerned the Inquiry recommends (Recommendation 13, p.225):

The following persons should be designated ‘mandated reporters’:
any person working in regulated activity in relation to children (under the
Safeguarding and Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, as amended);
any person working in a position of trust (as defined by the Sexual Offences Act
2003, as amended); and
police officers.

It is interesting that the Inquiry recognised that mandatory reporting could be counter-productive and that there are some instance where it shouldn't apply, even for mandated reporters.

81. Children and young people told the Inquiry that mandatory reporting could discourage children from disclosing sexual abuse for fear of the potential consequences for them, for their families and potentially for their abuser. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has separately observed that children might be deterred from accessing support in respect of mental health or sexual or reproductive health if professionals were required to report abuse that they became aware of through such treatment.

82. Some victims and complainants told the Inquiry that when they sought help they wanted the abuse to stop, without wanting there to be any legal consequences. Children and young people have commented that, once a report is made, they may feel a loss of control over this aspect of their lives. They may not be able to decide for themselves whether to engage with the criminal justice system, particularly where the abuser is a peer who they do not necessarily want to see investigated by police and prosecuted in a criminal court. The distress that children and their families might feel at the prospect of a formal investigation into allegations must not be underestimated.

83. It is also possible mandatory reporting could deter families from seeking help and that families are more likely to self-refer where they believe their disclosure will be handled confidentially. Parents may be worried about the consequences of disclosing a concern about sexual abuse in their household if they believe it would lead to the criminal investigation of a family member. Social, familial and economic factors might also influence parents’ decision-making.

85. In the delicate balance between the need to provide an individual child with confidential advice and support (whether medical, psychological, legal or social) and ensuring child sexual abuse is prevented, it is essential to recognise that there are some circumstances where privacy ought to be protected and some where prevention is paramount. One important example is in the context of consensual, non-abusive relationships between young people. In other jurisdictions, mandatory reporting laws provide for exemptions to the duty to report where the child concerned is in a sexual relationship with a person who is near in age to them and where that relationship lacks features of exploitation or coercion. The Inquiry considers that it is desirable that such a measure is included in a new mandatory reporting law.

I should note that the recommendation regarding 'mandated reporters' would not include Jehovah's Witnesses as they are neither a regulated activity in relation to children, nor in a position of trust (as defined by the Sexual Offences Act 2003).

34

“Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will by no means pass away.”

by Fisherman in

“this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

heaven and earth will pass away but my words will by no means pass away.”.

the destruction of jerusalem is insignificant in the large scheme of things.

Earnest

Fisherman : ... JW are required to agree with the belief. If you don’t, you are not a JW and if you are not a JW you are not a Christian.

I think it would be more accurate to say that JW can doubt this belief but cannot promote such doubts and remain a JW.

45

which Translation Now?

by enoughisenough in

for those of you who still respect the bible, which translation/s are you using now?

why?.

Earnest

Boogerman : The NWT wrongly/falsely attributes God's name (Jehovah) to the meaning of Hebrews 13:15

As this thread is about translation it should be noted that the NWT does not attribute any meaning to "his name" in Hebrews 13:15. It just reads "... the fruit of lips which makes public declaration to his name."

The Watchtower article with which you disagree indicates it is referring to God's name, but it has nothing to do with translation. However, since vs 15 talks about offering God a sacrifice of praise, and vs 16 says that God is well-pleased with such sacrifices, it is quite reasonable to conclude that the sacrifice is made "to [God's] name".

7

Just popped up in my YouTube feed…

by Biahi in

kingdom hall raided by police.

fresno county (ca?

) looking into a man named escobedo, for child molestation, groping, and rape, against at least 10 victims.

Earnest

Biahi : Another one that the elders knew about, and did nothing.

Why assume the elders did nothing?

In the news report at abc30 Action News it reports:

Spokespeople for the Jehovah's Witness national organization say they're cooperating in the investigation.

They told Action News police were contacted about Escobedo's behavior five times between 2009 and 2016, which is when the church expelled Escobedo as a member.

"To our knowledge, the identity of every victim known to the congregation has been reported to the police," they said in a statement. "As we understand it, the authorities were contacted on five different occasions about various incidents. In addition, the police are in possession of all relevant congregation records, which include privileged communications between congregants and elders."

Why wasn't Escobedo disfellowshipped earlier? Well, it is all speculation on our part, but it's noteworthy that the news report also says that "Tulare County investigators dropped a case in 2012 citing insufficient evidence and Fresno County prosecutors dropped another in 2014 for the same reason".