Earnest

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Posts by Earnest

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  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  Earnest

  aqwsed (quoting God’s Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing for Man’s Good) : Of course, divine wisdom does not have any separate existence apart from God. Wisdom always existed in Him and so was not created. For this reason it is interesting to hear how wisdom speaks of herself as a feminine person ...
  

  After quoting from Rabbi Isaac Leeser's translation where Proverbs 8:22 reads "The Lord created me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works from the commencement", the book goes on to say:

  Jewish leaders are concerned about the application that may be made of the above Bible verses. In the Soncino Press edition of Proverbs, of 1945, we read in the footnote on this section: "For the Jewish reader this interpretation is of much importance in view of the Christological use made of this section by the early Church Fathers." At any rate, Proverbs 8:22 speaks of something as being created as the beginning of the way of Jehovah God, as "the first of his works from the commencement." A "created" wisdom!

  But since you bring up the matter of Proverbs 8 again, may I take issue with your comment that "the Peshitta (Syriac) isn't translated from Hebrew, but most likely from the Greek Septuagint".

  slimboyfat referred to Emanuel Tov’s Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (2011) where it says the Peshitta was translated from Hebrew.

  In The Bible in the Syriac Tradition Sebastian Brock, concurs and says (p.13) "the Peshitta Old Testament was translated directly from the original Hebrew text, and the Peshitta New Testament directly from the original Greek".

  He goes further and says (p.22):

  One other book in the Peshitta has close links with the Targum, namely Proverbs. Here the situation is unique, for the Peshitta and the Targum are virtually word for word the same much of the time, and one must definitely derive from the other. One would expect the Peshitta to be derived from the Targum, but on linguistic grounds it can be shown that in fact the Targum must derive in this book from the Peshitta. This means that the Peshitta translation of Proverbs is also likely to have been the work of Jews in north Mesopotamia: it subsequently came to be taken over by Syriac-speaking Christians and by later Jews (who lightly modified the dialect).

  Why is this relevant? Because both the Syriac Peshitta and the Aramaic Targum use the verb 'created' at Proverbs 8:22.

  Peshitta : "The Lord created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

  Targum : "God created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

  In addition, in the Wisdom of Ben Sira, written in Hebrew in the early second century B.C.E., it says in several places that wisdom was created (1:4 "Before all other things wisdom was created"; 1:9 "It is he [the Lord] who created her"; 24:9 "Before all ages, from the beginning, he created me [wisdom]").
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  2. 
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  Earnest

  aqwsed12345 : It is quite clear what Arians do, they take one of the least likely meanings of the word, and then interpret this least likely meaning of that meaning in the least likely way, which is excluded by other statements in Scripture.

  You completely ignore that the meaning given to the word 'qanah' in Proverbs 8:22 is not a meaning given by Arians, but by lexicographers Brown-Driver-Briggs. You also ignore my question whether the use of 'qanah' in Genesis 14:19,22 means a bringing into existence from nothing.

  Your argument seems to be that because John describes Jesus as only-begotten, the meaning given by Brown-Driver-Briggs to 'qanah' in Proverbs 8:22 must be wrong. I think you are confusing lexicography with theology.
  
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  aqwsed12345 : When the pope "creates" a cardinal, doesn't mean he brings him to existence ex nihilo, but appoints him to a position.

  Why not compare Proverbs 8:22 with Genesis 14:19, 22 which also uses 'qanah' in relation to God.

  Genesis 14:19, 22 : "Then he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth...At this Aʹbram said to the king of Sodʹom: “I do lift up my hand [in an oath] to Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth"

  Do you think this means an appointment to a position or bringing into existence from nothing?

  Whether or not Proverbs 8 refers to Christ is a matter of interpretation, but it is difficult to imagine Paul did not have it in mind when he referred to Christ as the "wisdom of God".
  
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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• 

  Earnest

  aqwsed : So 'qanah' in the whole book of Proverbs means something, but right in 8:22 it means something else,

  That is exactly what lexicographers Brown-Driver-Briggs uphold. The point is that none of the other scriptures in Proverbs refer to 'qanah' in relation to God. When it is used in relation to God it has the sense of originating or creating, as Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6; and Psalm 139:13 substantiate.
  
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  Earnest

  aqwsed : You should compare how is the verb 'qanah' translated in the Book of Proverbs 1:5, 4:5, 4:7, 15:32, 16:16, 18:15, 19:8.

  In Brown-Driver-Briggs it gives four different senses in which 'qanah' is used:

  (a) of God as originating, creating. Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6; Psalm 139:13; Proverbs 8:22.

  (b) of God as victoriously redeeming his people. Exodus 15:16; Isaiah 11:11; Psalm 74:2; Psalm 78:54.

  (c) of Eve, acquiring (i.e. with the help of). Genesis 4:1.

  (d) of acquiring wisdom, knowledge. Proverbs 1:5, Proverbs 4:5 (twice in verse), Proverbs 4:7 (twice in verse), Proverbs 15:32, Proverbs 16:16 (twice in verse), Proverbs 17:16; Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 19:8; Proverbs 23:23.

  Note that all the examples you provide is where 'qanah' has the sense of acquiring wisdom or knowledge.
  

  The five instances where Brown-Driver-Briggs give 'qanah' the sense of originating, creating are

  Genesis 14:19, 22 : "Then he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth...At this Aʹbram said to the king of Sodʹom: “I do lift up my hand [in an oath] to Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth"

  Deuteronomy 32:6 : "Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father who has produced you, He who made you and proceeded to give you stability?"

  Psalm 139:13 : "For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother."

  Proverbs 8:22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  2. 
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• 

  Earnest

  aqwsed : There does not seem indeed any ground for the thought of creation either in the meaning of the root, or in the general usage of the word.

  You may cite Athanasius as much as you like, but you fail to address the Jewish and other translations provided by slimboyfat as well as the lexicons (such as Brown-Driver-Briggs and Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament) which render "qanah" as 'create' in Proverbs 8:22.
  
• 
  136

  Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

  by aqwsed12345 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

  it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

  instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  aqwsed12345 : I also quote from here:

  What you do not quote is the response to that post which addresses it in detail, including the thought that Psalm 139:13 is possibly the most difficult passage of all standing in the way of one who refuses to acknowledge a qanâ = ‘create’ in the Hebrew Bible, and that the Syriac (and Targum) has “created me,” which is a translation generally accepted to be from the Hebrew.
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  12

  Another new missing part of the Bible found

  by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22011278/new-bible-chapter-hidden-verses-discovered-erased-scribe/.

  i wonder what the remaining members of the gb will make of this?.

  i excited to read all of this once it’s released and compare with the rest of mathew.

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  Earnest

  Disillusioned JW : But despite saying the discovery is of a translation older than the Sinaiticus, the article says the discovered text "... was first written in the 3rd century CE and copied in the 6th century CE"

  The article in LiveScience throws a bit more light on the subject. It says :

  The most recent text on the parchment is written in Georgian, and there is an earlier text underneath it written in Greek. But when Grigory Kesselpens in new tab), a scholar who studies Syriac with the Austrian Academy of Sciences, examined UV images provided by the Vatican library, he found yet another layer hidden beneath the Greek text.

  The Old Syriac text contains part of Matthew 12:1. Kessel speculated that someone copied the verse onto the parchment during the sixth century. Based on the language, Kessel estimates that the original may have been produced in the third century.

  The article Kessel wrote [A New (Double Palimpsest) Witness to the Old Syriac Gospels (Vat. iber. 4, ff. 1 & 5)] can be found in New Testament Studies where he says that there can be no doubt that it was produced no later than the sixth century. Despite a limited number of dated manuscripts from this period, comparison with dated Syriac manuscripts allows us to narrow down a possible time frame to the first half of the sixth century.
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  12

  Another new missing part of the Bible found

  by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22011278/new-bible-chapter-hidden-verses-discovered-erased-scribe/.

  i wonder what the remaining members of the gb will make of this?.

  i excited to read all of this once it’s released and compare with the rest of mathew.

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  Earnest

  This is not a missing part of the Bible, but a translation in Old Syriac. What is new about it is that prior to identifying the underlying text in this parchment in 2016 there were only two other manuscripts known to contain parts of the Gospels in Old Syriac.

  In a less dramatic fashion, New Testament Studies, Volume 69, Issue 2, April 2023, pp.210-221 reported:

  Vat. iber. 4, a membrum disjectum [scattered fragment] of the manuscript Sin. geo. 49, contains on two of its folios the Syriac Gospel text as the lowest layer (scriptio ima) within a double palimpsest. Comparison with known Syriac versions of the extant text – Matt 11.30–12.26 – shows that the text represents the Old Syriac version, and is particularly akin to the Curetonianus (Syc). On palaeographic grounds, the original Gospel manuscript can be dated to the first half of the sixth century. The fragment is so far the only known vestige of the fourth manuscript witness to the Old Syriac version.
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  57

  Court case Jehovah's Witnesses Norway kicked off

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://cne.news/article/2827-court-case-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-kicked-off.

  norwegian jehovah's witnesses are in court this wednesday and thursday.

  they are fighting the government's decision to remove their registration as a religious community.. .

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  Earnest

  DesirousofChange : It was common practice on occasion ie a JW compromising on neutrality to simply verbally "spread the word" that so-and-so should be treated as DF'd. They did not want to DF someone for joining the military ...

  Shepherd the Flock of God, October 2022, Chapter 18, para. 3 (4), 5 says

  Actions that may indicate disassociation include ... taking a course that violates Christian neutrality. (Isa. 2:4; John 15:17-19; "How to Remain in God's Love" pp. 60-63, 244). If he joins a nonneutral organization, he has disassociated himself. If his employment makes him a clear accomplice in nonneutral activities, he should generally be allowed six months to make an adjustment. If he does not, he has disassociated himself.—See "How to Remain in God's Love" pp. 204-206.

  The coordinator of the body of elders should approve the announcement before an elder reads it to the congregation [at the next midweek meeting]. It should read as follows: “[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses".