Posts by Earnest

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed : it was this "Angel of the Lord" who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, led and protected them in the wilderness, gave them the law on Mount Sinai;

Your lengthy justification for the removal of God's name is interesting, but in the context of Jude vs 5 you seem to maintain that the manuscript support for "Jesus" is warranted as it was the "angel of the Lord" who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, and you identify that angel with the preincarnate "Jesus". Jehovah's Witnesses agree with much of what you say regarding the role Jesus played as the "angel of Jehovah (YHWH)" in his dealings with the patriarchs and the nation of Israel, and this is additional reason (not to digress) they accept the identification of him with the archangel Michael.

But you do not address the very obvious anomaly that the name "Jesus" is used in this context, where we are referring to a time when the only person with the name "Jesus" was Joshua (the Hebrew form of the Greek 'Jesus'), and the verse apparently does not refer to him. There is nowhere in scripture to suggest that the "angel of Jehovah" was known by the name 'Jesus' prior to his earthly existence. Which is why the UBS Committee was of the opinion that the reading ("Jesus") in this verse was difficult to the point of impossibility. How much more likely it is that God's name was used in some form and was subsequently replaced by whatever the copyists of various manuscripts could find to fit.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : It is worth considering one of the new readings of Nestle-Aland's latest 28th edition

I agree you have put the textual problem of Jude 5 clearly, but it was not a new reading. The first edition of the UBS Greek New Testament contained the reading "Jesus" in the text, but this was changed in the third edition when it was replaced with "Lord" in the text and "Jesus" in the margin. Now in NA28 they have returned "Jesus" to the text.

In his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger explains why "Lord" was preferred. He says the majority of the Committee was of the opinion that the reading was difficult to the point of impossibility and explained its origin in terms of transcriptional oversight (as the nomen sacrum for "lord" (ΚΣ) can be mistaken for the nomen sacrum for "Jesus" (ΙΣ)). They observed that nowhere else does Jude employ the name "Jesus" alone and others have queried whether Jude would refer to "Jesus" as "saving Israel out of Egypt" at a time when he was not known by that name.

Verse 5 has a number of variations :

I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that [ ΚΣ (Lord) / OΚΣ (the Lord) / ΙΣ (Jesus) / ΘΣ (God) / ΘΣΧΣ (God Christ) ], although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.

with the following manuscript support :

Lord [ΚΣ] ... codex Sinaiticus (4th century), codex Athous Lavrensis (8th/9th century)

the Lord [OΚΣ] ... codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (5th century), Syriac (7th century), codex Cyprius (9th century), codex Regius (13th century)

Jesus [ΙΣ] ... codex Alexandrinus (5th century), Vaticanus (4th century), minuscule 33 (9th century), miniscule 1739 (tenth century), miniscule 1881, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Coptic

God [ΘΣ]... codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (2nd corrector), some Vulgate mss

God [the] Christ [ΘΣΧΣ] ... papyrus 72 (3rd/4th century)

All these variations suggest there was some confusion about the text, and the fact that "Lord" has no definite article in some manuscripts suggests it replaced a name. The original might have contained the name "Jesus" which many manuscripts support despite it being unlikely, but others have suggested that this textual confusion occurred because Jude originally used God's name in some form which is why NWT includes "Jehovah" in this verse.

42

God and Unicorns

by Sea Breeze in

atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Atheist scientists now agree that "Elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

It's not quite clear which atheist scientists you are referring to. Are you referring to Svetlana Svyatko, who completed her PhD at Queens University, Belfast (a haven for atheist scientists) and who carried out AMS radiocarbon dating of the elasmotherium skull; or to Alexei Tesakov, head of the Laboratory of Quaternal Stratigraphy in Moscow (where the skull is held), or perhaps to the authors of the article in the American Journal of Applied Sciences, scientists Andrei Shpansky (who conducted the field research), Valentina Aliyassova (who designed the research plan) or Svetlana Ilyina (who measured the samples) ?

6

If Carey W. Barber were still alive, he'd be in this picture waving the book he sold Muhammad Ali.

by was a new boy in

a pioneer sister, from a neighboring congregation, told us back in 1972, the visiting co, carey w. barber was working their territory and went in to ali's training camp.

ali was working out in the ring while barber preached to him.

the 'campaign' was the peace and security book.. .

Earnest

Journeyman : . I noticed the same about Nelson Mandela - a lot of brothers would talk and act as though the man was a member of the anointed or had some kind of special status, when in scriptural terms he was just another politician.

True, in scriptural terms he was just another politician. But he did have some links with Jehovah's Witnesses. His first wife, Evelyn Ntoko Mase, to whom he was married 1944-58, was a Witness until her death in 2004. She urged Nelson Mandela to convert and he wrote that he did find some aspects of the Watch Tower's system to be interesting and worthwhile, but could not and did not share her devotion. He wrote that her faith taught passivity and submissiveness in the face of oppression, which he could not accept. When he was in prison, he also corresponded with Evelyn's brother, Sam Mase, and discussed the scriptures regarding paradise.

34

A New List of the J Versions and Where to Find them

by pizzahut2023 in

hi!i am doing a very long and exhaustive study of the "j" versions, based off the new study edition of the new world translation:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-c/divine-name-new-testament-2/.

this list has about 300 sources, mostly bibles, that the jehovah's witnesses have used to "justify" their insertion of "jehovah" into the new testament.i am doing an excel spreadsheet of where to find digitized copies of these j versions and then some notes on them.. they contain some really interesting renderings, some that would make a jehovah's witness's head spin!for example, in j29:the original aramaic new testament in plain english (an american translation of the aramaic new testament), by glenn david bauscher, seventh edition, australia, 2012which you can find here:.

http://buffaloriverforge.com/peshitta/nt%20peshitta%207th%20ed%20plain%20text%20unnoted.pdfin luke 2:11 it says:.

Earnest

pizzahut2023 : For example, in J29 (The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (An American Translation of the Aramaic New Testament), by Glenn David Bauscher, Seventh Edition, Australia, 2012)
In Luke 2:11 it says: "For today, the Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH the Messiah, in the city of David."

Thanks for all the work you have put into this, pizzahut2023. J29 is without doubt an interesting translation but shows a strong trinitarian bias. In the introduction the translator writes :

Divine Names and titles are generally translated, not transliterated like human names or place names. “Jehovah” is used to translate the Aramaic “MarYah” , which is The Aramaic for The Hebrew -“Yahweh”, and always refers to The Deity. This Name, very interestingly, is applied to Yeshua (Jesus) in the Peshitta New Testament at least 32 times! “MarYah” literally means “LORD JEHOVAH”. It is first applied to the infant Jesus in Luke 2:11. The last reference is in Rev. 22.20.

mryh (maryah) is an Aramaic word meaning 'Lord' and was used in the Syrian royal court long before Christianity. When the New Testament was translated into Syriac, a distinction was made to show whether it referred to human lords or was a euphemism for Jehovah by either spelling it out in full (maryah) or abbreviating it (mary, marah or mar). However, although maryah is used as a euphemism for Jehovah, it is also used to mean 'Lord' in a formal or respectful sense.

When it is used to refer to Jesus (Matthew 22:43,45; Luke 2:11; John 8:11; Acts 2:36,38; 9:10,27; 18:25; Romans 14:9,14; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 11:27,29; 12:3; Ephesians 4:5; Philippians 2:11; James 5:7,8; 1 Peter 2:3; 3:15; Revelation 22:20) it is never used as a name but as a title (Lord).

How do you tell what is meant? Consider the context and whether it is quoting from or alluding to the Old Testament where God's name is used.

Consider, for example, Matthew 22:43-45 :

He said to them, "And how did David by The Spirit call him maryah, for he said: 'maryah said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet'? If therefore David called him maryah, how is he his son?"

Quite clearly, if you repace maryah with "LORD JEHOVAH" in every instance, as is done in this translation, it makes a nonsense of the passage.

34

A New List of the J Versions and Where to Find them

by pizzahut2023 in

hi!i am doing a very long and exhaustive study of the "j" versions, based off the new study edition of the new world translation:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-c/divine-name-new-testament-2/.

this list has about 300 sources, mostly bibles, that the jehovah's witnesses have used to "justify" their insertion of "jehovah" into the new testament.i am doing an excel spreadsheet of where to find digitized copies of these j versions and then some notes on them.. they contain some really interesting renderings, some that would make a jehovah's witness's head spin!for example, in j29:the original aramaic new testament in plain english (an american translation of the aramaic new testament), by glenn david bauscher, seventh edition, australia, 2012which you can find here:.

http://buffaloriverforge.com/peshitta/nt%20peshitta%207th%20ed%20plain%20text%20unnoted.pdfin luke 2:11 it says:.

Earnest

slimboyfat : If I recall correctly, there are no manuscripts or quotations of this verse in that form earlier than around 250 CE...

slim, there are no manuscripts/papyri that I know of which contain Matthew 28 prior to the mid-fourth century. Irenaeus (c.130 - c.202) quotes it in his work Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 17, Para.1) with the formula "baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and he was writing about 180.

34

1290 JW Congregations have been deleted since 4th Dec 2022

by ComingOutaMyCage in

jw
friends

https://i.redd.it/hd9p1g3ssr2b1.jpg.

1290 jw congregations have been deleted since 4th dec 2022. i have a full map so you can explore active/deleted congs, and also orphaned halls https://analytics.jws-library.one/viewmap.html.

many of the deletions in the usa appear to be foreign language groups.

Earnest

slimboyfat : Is the possible to name the 16 congregations that have closed in Britain?

According to the interactive map seven congregations have been deleted : Edinburgh (Sign Language), Gosforth (Newcastle-upon-Tyne), King's Lynn (Polish), London (Bulgarian), London (Tagalog South), Prudhoe and Wallsend.

There are also eight deleted language groups : Bedford (Italian), Middlesbrough (Polish), Newcastle-under-Lyme (Tagalog), Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Slovak), Oxford (Mandarin), Reading (Nepali) and St Andrews (Mandarin).

And one Polish Pregroup in Colchester.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : ...it would not hurt you to accept that the authorities I have cited are have also at least, if not of the higher weight, like Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus, Jerome.

If we consider that the great majority of the New Testament quotations from the Old are from the Greek LXX rather than the Hebrew text, it seems absurd to suggest these other translations should have "at least, if not the higher weight". Mark 7:6,7 even has Jesus quoting from the LXX and what greater weight can you get?

The adoption of the LXX by the Christians as their scriptures naturally engendered suspicion on the part of Jews, especially when the messianic texts were applied to Jesus (e.g. Isaiah 7:14). In addition, the emergence of a single Hebrew text type after the destruction of the Temple made the great differences between it and the LXX increasingly intolerable to Jews, and the need was felt for a Greek translation based upon the current Hebrew text in circulation.

So, in the second century the versions of Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion were prepared for Greek-speaking Jews, all of which revised the verb used in the LXX at Proverbs 8:22 which Christians (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria) were applying to Christ. In the third century Origen edited the LXX on the basis of the Hebrew and retained the verb ἔκτισε (meaning "created") at Proverbs 8:22 despite the alternative renderings in the other Greek versions. So there is good reason to accept the LXX translation as having greater authority for Christians than the alternatives you seem to prefer.

50

To All Those Keen To Tell Us About Their Beliefs

by Simon in

we seem to have had an influx of religiots - the people who want to tell us all about how we / the wts / whoever are wrong, wrong, wrong about everything and how right they are.

they obviously have special insight, or voices (probably voices, right?

) telling them the real truth.. as proof, there is inevitably a wall of random scripture references and quotes.. sorry, but we're not here for that.

Earnest

slimboyfat : Isaac Newton, who was extremely into his Bible prophecy, apparently predicted the end for 2060, or, to put it more precisely, that 2060 was the latest date it could possibly be. If I recall correctly, this date was arrived at by adding 1260 day/years from Revelation to the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD.

Correct. In one of Newton's papers (Yahuda MS 7.3g, folio 13 verso), currently held by the Jewish National and University Library in Jerusalem, he wrote :

So then the time times & half a time [Daniel 7:25] are 42 months [Revelation 11:2; 13:5] or 1260 days [Revelation 11:3; 12:6] or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a yeare & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast.

The reason 800 C.E. is important is because Newton claims that is the beginning of the Pope's supremacy, when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as emperor at St Peter's in Rome. The 1260 years corresponds to the duration of the corruption of the Church, starting from 800.

You will note from the text I have emboldened that 2060 was not the latest date it could possibly end, but the earliest. Newton actually writes in another place (Yahuda MS 7.3o, folio 8 recto) :

The time times & half time do not end before 2060 nor after

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed (quoting God’s Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing for Man’s Good) : Of course, divine wisdom does not have any separate existence apart from God. Wisdom always existed in Him and so was not created. For this reason it is interesting to hear how wisdom speaks of herself as a feminine person ...

After quoting from Rabbi Isaac Leeser's translation where Proverbs 8:22 reads "The Lord created me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works from the commencement", the book goes on to say:

Jewish leaders are concerned about the application that may be made of the above Bible verses. In the Soncino Press edition of Proverbs, of 1945, we read in the footnote on this section: "For the Jewish reader this interpretation is of much importance in view of the Christological use made of this section by the early Church Fathers." At any rate, Proverbs 8:22 speaks of something as being created as the beginning of the way of Jehovah God, as "the first of his works from the commencement." A "created" wisdom!

But since you bring up the matter of Proverbs 8 again, may I take issue with your comment that "the Peshitta (Syriac) isn't translated from Hebrew, but most likely from the Greek Septuagint".

slimboyfat referred to Emanuel Tov’s Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (2011) where it says the Peshitta was translated from Hebrew.

In The Bible in the Syriac Tradition Sebastian Brock, concurs and says (p.13) "the Peshitta Old Testament was translated directly from the original Hebrew text, and the Peshitta New Testament directly from the original Greek".

He goes further and says (p.22):

One other book in the Peshitta has close links with the Targum, namely Proverbs. Here the situation is unique, for the Peshitta and the Targum are virtually word for word the same much of the time, and one must definitely derive from the other. One would expect the Peshitta to be derived from the Targum, but on linguistic grounds it can be shown that in fact the Targum must derive in this book from the Peshitta. This means that the Peshitta translation of Proverbs is also likely to have been the work of Jews in north Mesopotamia: it subsequently came to be taken over by Syriac-speaking Christians and by later Jews (who lightly modified the dialect).

Why is this relevant? Because both the Syriac Peshitta and the Aramaic Targum use the verb 'created' at Proverbs 8:22.

Peshitta : "The Lord created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

Targum : "God created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

In addition, in the Wisdom of Ben Sira, written in Hebrew in the early second century B.C.E., it says in several places that wisdom was created (1:4 "Before all other things wisdom was created"; 1:9 "It is he [the Lord] who created her"; 24:9 "Before all ages, from the beginning, he created me [wisdom]").