Posts by Earnest

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed : And there is no difference in the fact that according to [the Watchtower] Jesus led the Jews out of Egypt, so they can have no problem with any of the readings of Jude 5.

Perhaps I was not clear in the point I have been making since you raised the matter of the "new reading" in NA28 of the name "Jesus" in Jude vs 5 here.

It is irrelevant whether or not the Watchtower has a problem with the reading of Jude 5. It is relevant that prior to NA28, the majority of the UBS Committee held that the use of "Jesus" in this verse was "difficult to the point of impossibility" even though it was supported by a number of manuscripts.

In the field of textual criticism, biblical scholars weigh up the textual variation in available manuscripts and try to determine what original text most likely explains the variation that followed. In Jude vs 5 there is a wealth of variation as follows :

παντα απαξ γαρ Ιησους — 1739mg

απαξ παντα οτι Ιησους — A B 33 81 2344 itdem,div vgmss (eth) Jerome

απαξ παντα οτι κυριος — Ephraem

απαξ τουτο οτι ο θεος — 5 623mg

απαξ παντα οτι ο θεος — Cc 623 2805 vgms (slav)

απαξ παντας οτι θεος Χριστος — 𝔓72*

απαξ παντα οτι θεος Χριστος — 𝔓72c

παντα οτι κυριος απαξ — א Ψ

παντα οτι ο κυριος απαξ — C* 307 326 431 436 453 630 808 1505 1611 2138 2200 2412 2495 syrh

παντα οτι ο θεος — Lucifer

παντα οτι ο θεος απαξ — 442 621 1243 1845 1846 2492 𝑙596 itp vgmss syrph arm geo Clementvid

παντα οτι Ιησους — Cyril

παντα οτι Ιησους απαξ — 6 93 322 323 665 1241 1501 1739 1881 2298 itar,c cop Origenper 1739

παντα οτι ο Ιησους απαξ — 88 915

απαξ οτι ο κυριος — 1409

απαξ τουτο οτι ο κυριος — L 049 18 35 61 104 181 254 307 326 330 431 436 451 453 629 808 (909) 945 1067 1175 1292 1678 1836 1837 1844 (1875) 1877 2127 2374 𝔐 Lectpt Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact

απαξ τουτο οτι Χριστος Ιησους — 1735 𝑙591

τουτο απαξ οτι ο κυριος — K 056 𝑙593

απαξ τουτο υμας οτι ο κυριος — 0142

As this thread is about "Jehovah in the NT" I pointed out that the textual confusion could have occurred because Jude originally used God's name in some form and subsequent copyists chose to replace it with an alternative. This is not suggesting any "conspiracy" which you go on about, but simple human nature who (in a possible scenario) come across the Hebrew tetragrammaton or the Greek PIPI (which Jerome mentions [Letter 25 to Marcella]) in the text and replaces it with something which makes more sense to them. If you think this scenario is unlikely, I am asking for thoughts on a more plausible text which would explain the variation that followed.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed12345

Thank you for your thoughts about first-century Judaism and nascent Christianity which was far more variable than you suggest, but you fail to address the substance of my posts which have been about the textual variation of Jude vs 5 and how we can account for it. In addition, you have made no comment on how we can account for the unique reading of Jude vs 5 in P72 which occurs nowhere else even though it supports the Athanasian heresy.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

Earnest : How much more likely it is that God's name was used in some form and was subsequently replaced by whatever the copyists of various manuscripts could find to fit.
pizzahut2023 : The Tetragrammaton was certainly not in Jude 5. Nor anywhere in the NT.
Earnest : How do you know when the earliest manuscript evidence we have for Jude 5 is in the third/fourth century? And when the tetragrammaton or other forms of God's name occurs in all copies of the LXX prior to 200.
aqwsed12345 : Have you ever heard of the term "burden of proof"?

There would be a burden of proof if I had maintained that the textual variation of Jude vs 5 (regarding who saved Israel out of Egypt) proved that the original text contained God's name in some form. Instead I said it was more likely God's name was used as this explained the subsequent variation in manuscript tradition. On the other hand, pizzahut2023 was quite certain about what was not there in the original which we simply don't know.

pizzahut2023 : If we go by the EARLIEST manuscript evidence, then it's WORSE for your position because P72 says "God Christ"!!

P72, also known as Papyrus Bodmer VII, contains vss 1-25 and is the earliest witness we have for Jude. It was written in Egypt and dated to the late 3rd or early 4th century, a time when controversy about the identity of Christ was rife. James Royse, in his book on Scribal Habits in early Greek New Testament papyri, says (p.475) that "the significant percentage of nonsense readings in P72 and the very large percentage of singulars resulting from non-standard spelling show that the scribe of P72 was extraordinarily careless", and that the scribe "can also be seen to have increased the rate of production of nonsense as he went further with his copying".

What were the theological tendencies of this scribe? Marchant King, in his Notes on the Bodmer manuscript (Bibliotheca sacra 121, 1964, p.57), commented on three unique readings in P72 "giving evidence of the fullest acceptance of the deity of Christ by the scribe (or one of his predecessors) and the church in his area". These unique readings are 1 Peter 5:1 where it reads "the sufferings of God" (instead of Christ), 2 Peter 1:2 where it omits the word "and" after "God" so that it reads "in the knowledge of God our Lord Jesus", and Jude vs 5 where it reads "God Christ" as shown below.

This reading is unknown in any other manuscripts. It shows two things. First, that scribes had no qualms about correcting manuscripts to what they thought was meant, especially if there was some confusion in what was originally written (like, for example, a Hebrew word appearing in a Greek text). Secondly, it shows that there are texts we only know of by the chance survival of one papyrus in the Egyptian climate, so the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

pizzahut2023 : The Tetragrammaton it was certainly not in Jude 5.

How do you know when the earliest manuscript evidence we have for Jude 5 is in the third/fourth century? And when the tetragrammaton or other forms of God's name occurs in all copies of the LXX prior to 200.

Trinity believers may not see a difference if it's "Jesus", "The Lord", or "God", but the Jewish recipients of his letter at the time certainly would, being without the "benefit" of the development of the trinity doctrine hundreds of years later.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed : it was this "Angel of the Lord" who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, led and protected them in the wilderness, gave them the law on Mount Sinai;

Your lengthy justification for the removal of God's name is interesting, but in the context of Jude vs 5 you seem to maintain that the manuscript support for "Jesus" is warranted as it was the "angel of the Lord" who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, and you identify that angel with the preincarnate "Jesus". Jehovah's Witnesses agree with much of what you say regarding the role Jesus played as the "angel of Jehovah (YHWH)" in his dealings with the patriarchs and the nation of Israel, and this is additional reason (not to digress) they accept the identification of him with the archangel Michael.

But you do not address the very obvious anomaly that the name "Jesus" is used in this context, where we are referring to a time when the only person with the name "Jesus" was Joshua (the Hebrew form of the Greek 'Jesus'), and the verse apparently does not refer to him. There is nowhere in scripture to suggest that the "angel of Jehovah" was known by the name 'Jesus' prior to his earthly existence. Which is why the UBS Committee was of the opinion that the reading ("Jesus") in this verse was difficult to the point of impossibility. How much more likely it is that God's name was used in some form and was subsequently replaced by whatever the copyists of various manuscripts could find to fit.

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : It is worth considering one of the new readings of Nestle-Aland's latest 28th edition

I agree you have put the textual problem of Jude 5 clearly, but it was not a new reading. The first edition of the UBS Greek New Testament contained the reading "Jesus" in the text, but this was changed in the third edition when it was replaced with "Lord" in the text and "Jesus" in the margin. Now in NA28 they have returned "Jesus" to the text.

In his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger explains why "Lord" was preferred. He says the majority of the Committee was of the opinion that the reading was difficult to the point of impossibility and explained its origin in terms of transcriptional oversight (as the nomen sacrum for "lord" (ΚΣ) can be mistaken for the nomen sacrum for "Jesus" (ΙΣ)). They observed that nowhere else does Jude employ the name "Jesus" alone and others have queried whether Jude would refer to "Jesus" as "saving Israel out of Egypt" at a time when he was not known by that name.

Verse 5 has a number of variations :

I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that [ ΚΣ (Lord) / OΚΣ (the Lord) / ΙΣ (Jesus) / ΘΣ (God) / ΘΣΧΣ (God Christ) ], although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.

with the following manuscript support :

Lord [ΚΣ] ... codex Sinaiticus (4th century), codex Athous Lavrensis (8th/9th century)

the Lord [OΚΣ] ... codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (5th century), Syriac (7th century), codex Cyprius (9th century), codex Regius (13th century)

Jesus [ΙΣ] ... codex Alexandrinus (5th century), Vaticanus (4th century), minuscule 33 (9th century), miniscule 1739 (tenth century), miniscule 1881, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Coptic

God [ΘΣ]... codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (2nd corrector), some Vulgate mss

God [the] Christ [ΘΣΧΣ] ... papyrus 72 (3rd/4th century)

All these variations suggest there was some confusion about the text, and the fact that "Lord" has no definite article in some manuscripts suggests it replaced a name. The original might have contained the name "Jesus" which many manuscripts support despite it being unlikely, but others have suggested that this textual confusion occurred because Jude originally used God's name in some form which is why NWT includes "Jehovah" in this verse.

42

God and Unicorns

by Sea Breeze in

atheist scientists now agree that "elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

all they had to do was read their bible to know that.

job 39:9 “will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?”.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Atheist scientists now agree that "Elasmotherium sibiricu" lived with humans.

It's not quite clear which atheist scientists you are referring to. Are you referring to Svetlana Svyatko, who completed her PhD at Queens University, Belfast (a haven for atheist scientists) and who carried out AMS radiocarbon dating of the elasmotherium skull; or to Alexei Tesakov, head of the Laboratory of Quaternal Stratigraphy in Moscow (where the skull is held), or perhaps to the authors of the article in the American Journal of Applied Sciences, scientists Andrei Shpansky (who conducted the field research), Valentina Aliyassova (who designed the research plan) or Svetlana Ilyina (who measured the samples) ?

6

If Carey W. Barber were still alive, he'd be in this picture waving the book he sold Muhammad Ali.

by was a new boy in

a pioneer sister, from a neighboring congregation, told us back in 1972, the visiting co, carey w. barber was working their territory and went in to ali's training camp.

ali was working out in the ring while barber preached to him.

the 'campaign' was the peace and security book.. .

Earnest

Journeyman : . I noticed the same about Nelson Mandela - a lot of brothers would talk and act as though the man was a member of the anointed or had some kind of special status, when in scriptural terms he was just another politician.

True, in scriptural terms he was just another politician. But he did have some links with Jehovah's Witnesses. His first wife, Evelyn Ntoko Mase, to whom he was married 1944-58, was a Witness until her death in 2004. She urged Nelson Mandela to convert and he wrote that he did find some aspects of the Watch Tower's system to be interesting and worthwhile, but could not and did not share her devotion. He wrote that her faith taught passivity and submissiveness in the face of oppression, which he could not accept. When he was in prison, he also corresponded with Evelyn's brother, Sam Mase, and discussed the scriptures regarding paradise.

34

A New List of the J Versions and Where to Find them

by pizzahut2023 in

hi!i am doing a very long and exhaustive study of the "j" versions, based off the new study edition of the new world translation:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-c/divine-name-new-testament-2/.

this list has about 300 sources, mostly bibles, that the jehovah's witnesses have used to "justify" their insertion of "jehovah" into the new testament.i am doing an excel spreadsheet of where to find digitized copies of these j versions and then some notes on them.. they contain some really interesting renderings, some that would make a jehovah's witness's head spin!for example, in j29:the original aramaic new testament in plain english (an american translation of the aramaic new testament), by glenn david bauscher, seventh edition, australia, 2012which you can find here:.

http://buffaloriverforge.com/peshitta/nt%20peshitta%207th%20ed%20plain%20text%20unnoted.pdfin luke 2:11 it says:.

Earnest

pizzahut2023 : For example, in J29 (The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English (An American Translation of the Aramaic New Testament), by Glenn David Bauscher, Seventh Edition, Australia, 2012)
In Luke 2:11 it says: "For today, the Savior has been born to you, who is THE LORD JEHOVAH the Messiah, in the city of David."

Thanks for all the work you have put into this, pizzahut2023. J29 is without doubt an interesting translation but shows a strong trinitarian bias. In the introduction the translator writes :

Divine Names and titles are generally translated, not transliterated like human names or place names. “Jehovah” is used to translate the Aramaic “MarYah” , which is The Aramaic for The Hebrew -“Yahweh”, and always refers to The Deity. This Name, very interestingly, is applied to Yeshua (Jesus) in the Peshitta New Testament at least 32 times! “MarYah” literally means “LORD JEHOVAH”. It is first applied to the infant Jesus in Luke 2:11. The last reference is in Rev. 22.20.

mryh (maryah) is an Aramaic word meaning 'Lord' and was used in the Syrian royal court long before Christianity. When the New Testament was translated into Syriac, a distinction was made to show whether it referred to human lords or was a euphemism for Jehovah by either spelling it out in full (maryah) or abbreviating it (mary, marah or mar). However, although maryah is used as a euphemism for Jehovah, it is also used to mean 'Lord' in a formal or respectful sense.

When it is used to refer to Jesus (Matthew 22:43,45; Luke 2:11; John 8:11; Acts 2:36,38; 9:10,27; 18:25; Romans 14:9,14; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 11:27,29; 12:3; Ephesians 4:5; Philippians 2:11; James 5:7,8; 1 Peter 2:3; 3:15; Revelation 22:20) it is never used as a name but as a title (Lord).

How do you tell what is meant? Consider the context and whether it is quoting from or alluding to the Old Testament where God's name is used.

Consider, for example, Matthew 22:43-45 :

He said to them, "And how did David by The Spirit call him maryah, for he said: 'maryah said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet'? If therefore David called him maryah, how is he his son?"

Quite clearly, if you repace maryah with "LORD JEHOVAH" in every instance, as is done in this translation, it makes a nonsense of the passage.

34

A New List of the J Versions and Where to Find them

by pizzahut2023 in

hi!i am doing a very long and exhaustive study of the "j" versions, based off the new study edition of the new world translation:https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-c/divine-name-new-testament-2/.

this list has about 300 sources, mostly bibles, that the jehovah's witnesses have used to "justify" their insertion of "jehovah" into the new testament.i am doing an excel spreadsheet of where to find digitized copies of these j versions and then some notes on them.. they contain some really interesting renderings, some that would make a jehovah's witness's head spin!for example, in j29:the original aramaic new testament in plain english (an american translation of the aramaic new testament), by glenn david bauscher, seventh edition, australia, 2012which you can find here:.

http://buffaloriverforge.com/peshitta/nt%20peshitta%207th%20ed%20plain%20text%20unnoted.pdfin luke 2:11 it says:.

Earnest

slimboyfat : If I recall correctly, there are no manuscripts or quotations of this verse in that form earlier than around 250 CE...

slim, there are no manuscripts/papyri that I know of which contain Matthew 28 prior to the mid-fourth century. Irenaeus (c.130 - c.202) quotes it in his work Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 17, Para.1) with the formula "baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and he was writing about 180.