Posts by Earnest

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Rattigan350 : However it was clear that the 144,000 was filled by [1935]. The first resurrection started in 1918 after the heavens were cleansed.

That is what was more or less believed between 1966 and 2007. In the May 1, 2007 Watchtower there was a Question from Readers where it discussed previous understandings and concluded "it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends."

Further, the January 1, 2007 Watchtower said that the idea the first resurrection started in 1918 was an interesting possibility but is not directly confirmed in the Bible. In fact, all that can be said is that if Jesus was enthroned in 1914 then the first resurrection probably started after that because there is no mention of them when war was waged in heaven against Satan and his demons. Personally, I do not find that evidence compelling.

Listener : You say it is fact that one of the 24 elders revealed the identity of the great crowd to John. How could they reveal it to him if none of them were even in heaven at the time?

As Revelation is about events "in the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10), the 24 elders can represent the future 144,000 even though none of them were in heaven at the time the vision was given. The book Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand, 2006, p.125 para. 17 says that the identification of the great crowd by the elder suggests the resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in communicating divine truths today.

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Listener, 1935 has an interesting background as the terminus ante quem of the first resurrection.

In the November 15, 1933 Watchtower (pp. 339-345) it discussed Jesus' parable of the vineyard where all the labourers are given payment of a penny/denarius at the end of the day, regardless of how long they have spent in the vineyard. In the article it identified the start of the day as 1919, and the end of the day (12 hours later) as 1931 (12 years later). The payment of a penny/denarius was identified as the new name of Jehovah's witnesses.

So there was some scriptural justification to believe the heavenly calling had ended by 1931.

The Question from Readers in the May 1, 2007 Watchtower says

For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.

So that scriptural justification fell away. The Question from Readers goes on to say :

After [1935, when the Great Crowd was identified], the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

This was based on the fact that one of the 24 elders (representing the 144,000) revealed the identity of the great crowd to John (Revelation 7:13-15). Therefore by the time the great crowd was identified (in 1935) the first resurrection must have begun. But there doesn't seem to be any scriptural reason to believe that the heavenly call had ended then, only circumstance.

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Listener : ...they believe the 144,000 anointed who have died began to be resurrected to heaven in 1914.

On the contrary, the Watchtower which you quoted claimed that " that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935." It then went on to say

Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

So all that can be said with certainty is that the terminus post quem of the first resurrection is 1914 and the terminus ante quem is 1935. Possibly, "it could be reasoned", "it is not out of harmony with other scriptures", it began in the spring of 1918 BUT "that cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible".

20

Pioneer Hours

by Etude in

does anyone know how many hours were required to be a pioneer back in or around 1970?.

etude..

Earnest

Dagney : I was told the hours for full time in the 30's-40's was 150, although not called pioneers back then I think.

On doing a bit more research I found the 1945 publication Organization Instructions for the Kingdom Publisher confirms what you said, namely (page 12, paragraph 34) :

Any publisher may make application to become a pioneer if that publisher can arrange his affairs so as to spend a minimum of I50 hours in the field service each month.

Special Pioneers had a requirement of 175 hours at that time (page 13, paragraph 40).

By 1955 the requirement for pioneers was 100 hours a month or 1200 hours a year (Preaching Together in Unity, page 19, paragraph 58). So I think my earlier recall of 120 hours a month for a pioneer was mistaken.

31

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

Earnest

Phizzy : It is of note to me that they left the quote from a Scholar that said Priestley's group had gone back to "the original manuscripts" without comment.

I think the account was quite balanced. While Dr Malcolm Dick (Senior Lecturer in Local History, University of Birmingham) did say (@ 01:44) "he [Priestley] could compare the King James' version of the Bible with original texts in original languages", that was balanced a few seconds later by the late Dr James Aitken (Professor of Hebrew and Early Jewish Studies, University of Cambridge) who elaborated (@ 01:53) that "there were multiple manuscripts, both of the Hebrew text and of the Greek text, which were now available and showed that sometimes the text that the Authorised Version was based on was not the only reading available".

Priestley's Group certainly had access to Codex Alexandrinus (fifth century), as well as Codex Bezae (fifth/sixth century) and Codex Claromontanus (sixth century). How do we know? Because William Whiston, who was also a unitarian based in Cambridge, published his Primitive New Testament in 1745 based on these three manuscripts. Codex Beza for Gospels and Acts; Codex Alexandrinus for the letters of James, Peter, John, Jude and Revelation; Codex Claromontanus for the epistles of Paul and Hebrews.

If you are interested in Robert Garnham's writings, the only publicly available one I could find was Examination of Mr Harrison's Sermon in a Letter to an Athanasian Christian, 1789, but that isn't about his translation. Maybe more interesting would be the letters between Joseph Priestley and Theophilus Lindsey which can be found here (1769 - 1789) and here (1790 - 1794).

20

Pioneer Hours

by Etude in

does anyone know how many hours were required to be a pioneer back in or around 1970?.

etude..

Earnest

Regular pioneering was never 150 hours. There was a time when it was 120 hours, then 100 hours, then 90, then 70.

31

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

Earnest

Talking of Joseph Priestley, I can strongly recommend this video on A Lost Bible Translation Rediscovered.

31

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

Earnest

There is an article The Church fathers - Advocates of Bible Truth? in the Watchtower of April 15, 2001 which concludes that "the Church Fathers allowed 'misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons' to take root in the Christian congregation.". That is hardly an endorsement.

I would also note that there was some confusion as to who or what Christ was until teachings were defined in various councils. Naturally those whose writings supported the (now) orthodox teaching were copied and promulgated as authority. Those whose writings did not support the new orthodoxy were simply not preserved. So in consequence we have very little record of the many who did not support in some way the teachings which later became orthodox. Thus the only authority we should rely on is scripture itself.

263

Where is Tony?

by Athanasius in

jw
friends

on february 22, 2023, anthony morris iii was officially removed from the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

a few months later it was revealed that the watchtower bought him a house in lumberton, north carolina.. however, and correct me if i am wrong, since leaving the gb nobody has reported seeing tony attending jw meetings or participating in field service.

in fact nobody has reported seeing him anywhere, not even at a local liquor store.

Earnest

Raymond Franz wrote (in Crisis of Conscience, 4th edition, p.45) that Thomas Sullivan "in his eighties, nearly blind and in poor health" would repeatedly sleep during the governing body sessions. He remained a member of the governing body until he died at the age of 86.

3

Looking for old friends Widnes kingdom hall

by KennethMckie in

jw
friends

my father was a member of the widnes kingdom hall and we are trying to find his old friends who use to go to the kingdom hall in widnes.

his friends would have known him as ken mckie.

my father is now in a nursing home due to his health issues kenneth mckie had many friends in the widnes kingdom hall and lost there contact .

Earnest

Try the Kingdom Hall contact @ 07801 844789