Posts by Earnest

26

Still Confused About The FDS

by NotFormer in

this was prompted by another thread where it was revealed that the gb were referred to as "our future kings" in a wt video.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4911685446402048/fun-moment.

if i've got it right, the 144,000 are (or were until recently) the fds.

Earnest

NotFormer : Earnest, you do not see the logical fallacy that I am pointing out?

I understood your thread was to confirm whether or not your understanding was correct. I would have replied very differently if I was attempting to support the FDS doctrine.

NotFormer : The WT two-tier system is inconsistent and didn't exist in anyone's mind until Rutherford made it out of whole cloth.

The WT two-tier system is entirely consistent with the Bible teaching that some will be kings and priests in heaven as brothers of Christ, and others will live on the earth. Understanding differs as to who these others will be, but a two-tier system is entirely in harmony with the Bible and believed by most churches except those who teach the earth will be destroyed.

26

Still Confused About The FDS

by NotFormer in

this was prompted by another thread where it was revealed that the gb were referred to as "our future kings" in a wt video.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4911685446402048/fun-moment.

if i've got it right, the 144,000 are (or were until recently) the fds.

Earnest

NotFormer : the 144,000 are (or were until recently) the FDS.

As discussed previously, the 144,000 are in heaven. Those who are anointed on earth are referred to as the remant, the remaining ones. These remaining ones were (until 2012) understood to collectively be the FDS.

NotFormer : [The remnant] are Jesus ' brothers?

Correct. Matthew 25:31-46 makes a distinction between Jesus' brothers and sheep-like ones who support them. See, for example, the article Loyally Supporting Christ's Brothers.

NotFormer : [Every JW] who is not the [remnant] are the "other sheep".

Correct.

NotFormer: [The "other sheep"] are not Jesus’ brothers.

Correct, in the sense of Matthew 25:31-46.

NotFormer : Yet the GB, who are Jesus' brothers, refer to [the "other sheep"] as brothers and sisters. But how can that be?

Technically the "other sheep" are not brothers and sisters of Christ in the sense of Matthew 25, but they are still addressed as brothers and sisters as they share the same faith. I suppose the language is borrowed from Paul's letters without being pedantic that when Paul wrote he was writing to the brothers of Christ.

NotFormer: The [remnant] are from Jesus' family, but the [other sheep] are not part of Jesus' family.

Scripture only makes a distinction between Christ’s brothers and sheep-like ones. It doesn’t go beyond that.

NotFormer : If the great crowd is not related to Jesus, then who is their father?

The "other sheep" are not Jesus' brothers but God is the father of all.

NotFormer : If the GB are "our future kings", then shouldn't the other sheep...be referred to by the GB as "our future slaves"?

We are all slaves of Christ, are we not.

NotFormer : What now is the status of the [remnant]; do they matter? Are they the GB's brothers and sisters?

All members of the Governing Body claim to be spirit-anointed and are thus part of the remnant. So, yes, according to scripture support given to Christ's brothers on earth (i.e. the remnant) does matter. But I see your point that Matthew 25:31-46 was more pertinent when the entire remnant was understood to be the FDS.

40

1963 Resolution Condemning the United Nations

by Sea Breeze in

quote from that world wide resolution: .

that, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to god’s messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the united nations, with international headquarters at new york city.

this international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men.

Earnest

The organization of the International Bible Students Association was incorporated on 30 June 1914 and the governing document was amended by special resolution in 1949, 1951, 1958, 2005, 2014 and 2016.

In the Watchtower of December 15, 1914, Russell wrote (p.371)

For the sake of our many new readers we explain the the Watch Tower, Bible and Tract Society, as the parent organization, represents all the activities in Christian work with which THE WATCH TOWER and its editor are associated. All the work done through the International Bible Students Association and Peoples Pulpit Association, directly and indirectly, is the work of the Watch Tower, Bible and Tract Society.

It was registered as a charity in the UK on 18 November 1964. The charity spends its money to "provide serviced facilities to support religious activity of Jehovah's Witnesses. Arrange for venues to host conventions for Bible education. Pay expenses for and take care of living arrangements for members of the Worldwide Order of Special Full-Time Servants of Jehovah's Witnesses."

The current trustees are Michael Simpson, Andrew Paul Sutton, Stephen Charles Hale Symonds, Jonathan Manley and Karl William Snaith.

40

1963 Resolution Condemning the United Nations

by Sea Breeze in

quote from that world wide resolution: .

that, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to god’s messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the united nations, with international headquarters at new york city.

this international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men.

Earnest

oncebitten : [The IBSA] may not own [the IBSA] website but they OWN [the old publications]. Does that make sense?

In the UK the copyright Act, 1988, states that copyright exists until 70 years after the death of the writer, or if the writer is not known then 70 years after the work was published.

In the United States, the copywrite Act states that works published before January 1, 1929 are in the public domain.

So anyone can publish Russell's writings without needing permission from anyone.

40

1963 Resolution Condemning the United Nations

by Sea Breeze in

quote from that world wide resolution: .

that, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to god’s messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the united nations, with international headquarters at new york city.

this international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men.

Earnest

nicolaou : I'd like to see proof [that IBSA in London still sells the writings of Charles Taze Russell]

International Bible Students Association

However, the website does not belong to the charity although it has the same name. The website has links to various Bible Students organizations, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Watchtower. So while the Watchtower owns IBSA it clearly does not own the website.

14

Any news on JWs in the Ukraine?

by careful in

the war in the ukraine has been going on for 2+ years now, yet very little has been put forth by the org on how the witnesses are doing there.

especially of interest would be just how the org has implemented their relatively new 'alternative service is ok' policy in lieu of real military service in a place where warfare is actually occurring.

yet nothing is forthcoming from the gb on this matter, or any other issues, really.. does anyone know what's been going on the regarding the witnesses there?.

Earnest

In War Resisters International it reports that only one JW has been sentenced to prison (in March) for refusing military service, and his case is on appeal.

Jehovah's Witnesses note that this is the first prison term handed down to any Jehovah's Witness for refusing mobilisation on grounds of conscience. They point out that this case was initiated and the first-instance court handed down a sentence within about five weeks.
Jehovah's Witnesses stress that their young men are prepared to perform an alternative civilian service. They also note that Jehovah's Witnesses in neighbouring Russia (where the community has been banned as "extremist") do not participate on grounds of conscience in Russia's war against Ukraine.

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Rattigan350 : However it was clear that the 144,000 was filled by [1935]. The first resurrection started in 1918 after the heavens were cleansed.

That is what was more or less believed between 1966 and 2007. In the May 1, 2007 Watchtower there was a Question from Readers where it discussed previous understandings and concluded "it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends."

Further, the January 1, 2007 Watchtower said that the idea the first resurrection started in 1918 was an interesting possibility but is not directly confirmed in the Bible. In fact, all that can be said is that if Jesus was enthroned in 1914 then the first resurrection probably started after that because there is no mention of them when war was waged in heaven against Satan and his demons. Personally, I do not find that evidence compelling.

Listener : You say it is fact that one of the 24 elders revealed the identity of the great crowd to John. How could they reveal it to him if none of them were even in heaven at the time?

As Revelation is about events "in the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10), the 24 elders can represent the future 144,000 even though none of them were in heaven at the time the vision was given. The book Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand, 2006, p.125 para. 17 says that the identification of the great crowd by the elder suggests the resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in communicating divine truths today.

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Listener, 1935 has an interesting background as the terminus ante quem of the first resurrection.

In the November 15, 1933 Watchtower (pp. 339-345) it discussed Jesus' parable of the vineyard where all the labourers are given payment of a penny/denarius at the end of the day, regardless of how long they have spent in the vineyard. In the article it identified the start of the day as 1919, and the end of the day (12 hours later) as 1931 (12 years later). The payment of a penny/denarius was identified as the new name of Jehovah's witnesses.

So there was some scriptural justification to believe the heavenly calling had ended by 1931.

The Question from Readers in the May 1, 2007 Watchtower says

For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were “the last” called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted understanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.

So that scriptural justification fell away. The Question from Readers goes on to say :

After [1935, when the Great Crowd was identified], the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

This was based on the fact that one of the 24 elders (representing the 144,000) revealed the identity of the great crowd to John (Revelation 7:13-15). Therefore by the time the great crowd was identified (in 1935) the first resurrection must have begun. But there doesn't seem to be any scriptural reason to believe that the heavenly call had ended then, only circumstance.

40

How does the Govering Body get enlightenment?

by no-zombie in

from the earliest of times of the catholic church's ecumenical councils were used to make major changes to its doctrinal direction.

decisions were made by bishops, they were ratified by the pope ... and it was done.

and the laity had to accepted them or not.. and while splinter catholic religions accepted most of these councils, non-trinitarian faiths which developed latter (of which jehovah's witnesses are apart) did not.

Earnest

Listener : ...they believe the 144,000 anointed who have died began to be resurrected to heaven in 1914.

On the contrary, the Watchtower which you quoted claimed that " that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935." It then went on to say

Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

So all that can be said with certainty is that the terminus post quem of the first resurrection is 1914 and the terminus ante quem is 1935. Possibly, "it could be reasoned", "it is not out of harmony with other scriptures", it began in the spring of 1918 BUT "that cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible".

20

Pioneer Hours

by Etude in

does anyone know how many hours were required to be a pioneer back in or around 1970?.

etude..

Earnest

Dagney : I was told the hours for full time in the 30's-40's was 150, although not called pioneers back then I think.

On doing a bit more research I found the 1945 publication Organization Instructions for the Kingdom Publisher confirms what you said, namely (page 12, paragraph 34) :

Any publisher may make application to become a pioneer if that publisher can arrange his affairs so as to spend a minimum of I50 hours in the field service each month.

Special Pioneers had a requirement of 175 hours at that time (page 13, paragraph 40).

By 1955 the requirement for pioneers was 100 hours a month or 1200 hours a year (Preaching Together in Unity, page 19, paragraph 58). So I think my earlier recall of 120 hours a month for a pioneer was mistaken.