Posts by Earnest

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Jerryh : do you have a reference for [stating] "at death they lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body"

I really based that on the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses that the "faithful and discreet slave" only exists as a composite group while the individual members are part of the anointed "domestics" (who are also fed spiritually by the slave).

So, if you are no longer a part of that composite group [of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food], ipso facto you lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body.

But I had a look around in the literature and there are many places where it specifies that the "faithful and discreet slave" is made up of anointed Christians on earth. (Watchtower 02/01/75 p.77 para.4; 05/15/95 p.16 para.2; 03/15/02 p.14 para.4; 03/01/04 p.10 para.9; 11/01/07 p.30 para.12; 02/15/09 p.24 para.2; 06/15/09 p.22 para.11; 10/15/09 p.15 para.14; "Organized to do Jehovah's Will", 2019, pp.17-23 para.4).

As an example, the 1975 Watchtower referred to above says :

As a congregation, body or group, the anointed, spirit-begotten brothers of Jesus Christ, while on earth, are called his “faithful and discreet slave,” or servant.

The only place I could find that suggested the "faithful and discreet slave" retained membership after death was a commentary on Revelation published in 1918 entitled The Finished Mystery. In commenting on Revelation 8:3 it says:

And another angel. - Not the "voice of the Lord," mentioned in the preceding chapter, but the corporate body - the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, which Pastor Russell formed to finish his work. This verse shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work.

However, that idea didn't retain currency and hasn't been held by Jehovah's Witnesses for at least ninety years.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Listener : Part of the FDS have already gone to heaven, according to their teachings, that includes Rutherford, Knorr and Franz. What happened to their appointment?

The faithful and discreet slave is "a composite slave - a group working together as one body" (2012 Annual Meeting Report) whose members are, individually, domestics just like all the rest of Jesus' genuine followers (The Watchtower of July 2013, "Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?", para.13).

So, whether members of the "faithful and discreet slave" leave the group as a result of death or any other cause, they relinquish their appointment to the body.

The question arises, then, if they relinquish their appointment as part of the "faithful and discreet slave" at death, how can they get their appointment "over all his belongings" when they are resurrected to heavenly life during the great tribulation (as at death they lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body)? The only answer I can see is that they simply share the reward of all anointed followers (see para.19 of the 2013 Watchtower referred to above) but that is not particularly satisfying as exegesis.

I hope I haven't lost you, Jerryh, but their adjustment in understanding of the "faithful and discreet slave" has created as many questions as it resolved,

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Longlivetherenegades : In all those slave illustrations, it was when the MASTER was LEAVING, TRAVELLING e.t.c that he handed out tasks to his slaves not when he RETURNED.

While it is true that the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) does start off "when a man was about to travel abroad", the Watchtower of March 15, 2015 discussed the parables of Matthew 24 & 25 and identified the slaves in this parable as representing all his anointed followers since Pentecost 33 C.E. They are expecting the "master of the slaves" to come and settle accounts towards the end of the great tribulation.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not identify these slaves with the "faithful and discreet slave" of Matthew 24:45-47, and it can be seen when reading the verses prior to vs 45 (vss 32-44) that they refer to the coming (not going) of the Son of Man.

Jehovah's Witnesses make a distinction between the parousia (rendered as 'coming' in some translations) referred to in Matthew 24:3, and his arrival or coming (forms of the Greek verb, er′kho·mai.) referred to in Matthew 24:30, 42, 44 which they expect during the great tribulation (Watchtower July 15, 2013, pp.23-27).

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

mickbobcat : If the liberals are correct on this than if you are 10 and murder you go to big boy jail.

WIC 602 (b)(1).says that "Any minor who is under 12 years of age when he or she is alleged to have committed [murder] is within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court, which may adjudge the minor to be a ward of the court.

Whether the liberals are correct on this or not.

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Simon : I think this is a better start than just "minor" and "10 years" as it doesn't account for the differences along the spectrum of ages.

Therre is much to recommend there, Simon, and I appreciate there may still be a bit of tweaking to be done, but there will always be circumstances where the discretion of the judge is a more just solution than mandatory guidelines for registration as a sex offender.

For example, consider the case I refer to in my previous post. The circumstances were that the defendant met his 16-year-old female victim in an Internet chat room. After chatting with the victim a number of times on the Internet and speaking to her by phone, defendant met her and her young friend at a beach. Defendant brought rum and orange juice, which the girls drank. The victim`s friend got drunk and sick. Before taking the girls home, defendant told the victim, you owe me something. The victim orally copulated him.

In your proposed guidelines he would not have been prosecuted in the first place, and would certainly not have been required to register.

Also, comparing your table with current legislation, registration is mandatory (as you also have it) when the victim is 11, 12, 13, 16 and 17 and is at the discretion of the judge when the victim is 14 or 15.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

waton : Who exactly will fill that vacuum? Or is that to heavenly universal office?

Yes, those who make up the faithful slave will get their appointment "over all his belongings" when they are resurrected to heavenly life during the great tribulation and given royal authority in heaven and on earth.

Jerryh : This is truncated but is it accurate?

As you noted earlier, in 2012/13 there was an adjustment in understanding. So your summary is out of date. Jesus' appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave" did not happen at Pentecost or in 1879.

The first inspection occurred between 1914 and early 1919, and the appointment of the slave over his domestics was in 1919.

At that time the slave consisted of a small group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters who were directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food.

In recent years, that group has been identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The second inspection is during the great tribulation when those who make up the slave will receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. They will be sharing this reward with all the anointed who have a heavenly resurrection.

If you want to read further on it, it is discussed in the 2012 Annual Meeting Report and The Watchtower of July 2013.

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Simon : you retreat to convenient example of a 17 + 18 year old couple which no one that I'm aware of has any real concern over

The reason I give that example, Simon, is exactly because that makes it clear why discretionary registration as a sex offender is preferable to mandatory registration. Discretionary registration allows the judge to decide in the case of the 18 year old that he is not required to register as a sex offender, and decide in a case where the age difference is unacceptably greater that the perpetrator is required to register. Whereas the situation before this Bill which required mandatory registration does not allow for that distinction.

I explained in a previous post on this thread that this debacle arose in a case involving a 22 year old who had voluntary oral sex with a 16 year old. The review by the Superior Court makes the point quite well:

At the sentencing hearing, defense counsel argued that under the circumstances of this case, defendant should not be subject to mandatory lifetime registration as a sex offender. Counsel said: It`s kind of ironic, because if he had actually had sexual intercourse with [the minor] and was charged and convicted of statutory rape, he would not have to register under 290 of the Penal Code. It seems to me that his conduct is less serious in that sort of a situation, yet the statute seems to suggest that he is required to register for life. I think that is a violation of equal protection under the laws and a violation of the California Constitution . . . .
The prosecutor responded that he would have no objection if defendant, after completing probation, were to ask the trial court to have his felony conviction reduced to a misdemeanor and to delete the requirement of lifetime registration as a sex offender. The trial court asked: Doesn`t it [the lifetime registration requirement] seem a little out of whack here? The prosecutor agreed: I think the law is out of whack. But that`s the law. The trial court observed that in applying the registration requirement here, the law did appear to be out of whack, but said it could not find on the face of it that it`s unconstitutional.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Just to add to what Magnum says, the key scripture is Matthew 24:45-47. Vs 45 refers to appointment over the domestics and vs.47 refers to appointment over all his belongings.

So, the understanding in the 2013 Watchtower is that there are two appointments, the first in 1919 over the domestics (who are defined as both the anointed and the 'other sheep'), and the second over all his belongings during the great tribulation. :

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Simon : Yeah, until they change those laws to remove the age limits specified in them. Then which limits would apply. Oh, right, the limits in this bill ... right?

Simon, this Bill doesn't specify age limits. What it says is

This bill would exempt from mandatory registration under the act a person convicted of certain offenses involving minors if the person is not more than 10 years older than the minor and if that offense is the only one requiring the person to register.

So, if we are talking about age limits we have to see how "minor" is defined and look at the statutes which this Bill affects, Section 286 (b), Section 287 (b), and Section 289 (h)(i). Section 261.5 defines "minor" as a person under the age of 18 years. The other sections concur with this. If the victim is under 14 then the sections above specify they would be charged under Section 288 instead which requires mandatory registration as a sex offender in all cases.

So you would be correct if you said they can change the definition of a minor. If the California Legislature agrees on it they can do it. But no other state has a higher age of consent than California and they have not changed it since 1872. But if that's what they decided then they could do it, and when this Bill and other statutes refers to "minors" it would mean something different.

Think of it in terms of a computer program where you have your global definitions and wherever the variable is referred to in various sections of the program it has the meaning specified in the global definition. So, when you change the definition the meaning changes throughout the program. It is the same idea. So this Bill has no age limits. The age limits are decided by the definition of "minor" elsewhere..

Simon : If this law doesn't affect any consequences, then why have it?

Mr Finkelstein was referring to prepubescents and I said this lawl does not affect the consequences for anyone who commits a sexual act with a minor under 14. The law has consequences for those included in sections 286, 287 and 289 of the Penal Code as referred to above.

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Mr Finkelstein : This new law/Bill is wrong in that it lessens the guilt and wrong doing for an adult 18+ enticing an child/ prepubescent into committing a sexaul act.

This new law/Bill does not affect the consequences for anyone who commits a sexual act with a minor under 14. There is a minimum of three, six or eight years in prison with mandatory reporting as a sex offender after release from prison. Read the law - Penal Code § 288 (a).