Posts by Earnest

15

In my country the preaching work is over

by cookiemaster in

the jws in my country can't preach to anyone these days and they're going crazy.

i live in romania and initially during the covid-19 lockdown they were very enthusiastic about preaching.

they've since held daily "field service meetings" on zoom.

Earnest

steve2 : What gives that they still don't use kingdom halls months later?

In a June 2020 letter to the Bodies of Elders in the UK they wrote:

Regardless of direction from secular authorities, the Kingdom Hall should not be used for any meetings until further direction is received from the branch office. This applies even if the secular authorities begin to ease certain restrictions in the near future. Adjustments by the secular authorities do not automatically mean there are adjustments to theocratic activities. If the body of elders believes there is an exceptional need to use the Kingdom Hall, such as for a judicial committee, a funeral, or a wedding, two elders should call the Service Department and explain the recommendation of the body of elders.

I expect this policy holds true in NZ too.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Vanderhoven7 : What is the current teaching re 2018?

Should that be 1918?

Vanderhoven7 : The anointed dead were raised to heavenly life in the spring and the churches of Christendom were rejected in the fall of [1918]

No. That is no longer current Watchtower understanding.There is a full discussion in the Watchtower of January 1, 2007 which says (in part):

Could it, then, be reasoned that ...the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began ... in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures. ... God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, but it does reveal that it occurs over a period of time, during Christ’s presence.

As regards the rejection of the churches of Christendom, Jesus inspected and cleansed the temple between 1914 and the beginning of 1919. So it was only in 1919 that it became evident Babylon the Great had fallen. (See Watchtower March 2016 and Watchtower July 15, 2013).

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Longlivetherenegades : The problem here is ON COMING, the initial task was given when he LEAVES, when the master returns, he confirms is diligence to initial task and REWARDS the slave with appointment all over belongings just like the other illustrations

Thanks for explaining it clearer. I understand where you are coming from.

Matthew 24:45 says "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?"

The slave was only given the task to give the domestics their food at the proper time when the master appointed him over the domestics. That wasn't when he left in 33 C.E., it was at the time of his parousia in 1914, with the appointment happening in 1919 after the inspection of the temple.

Then, having given the slave the task to feed the domestics in 1919, vs 46 says the slave is happy if the master, on arriving (during the great tribulation), finds him doing so. He then appoints him over all his belongings.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Jerryh : do you have a reference for [stating] "at death they lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body"

I really based that on the belief of Jehovah's Witnesses that the "faithful and discreet slave" only exists as a composite group while the individual members are part of the anointed "domestics" (who are also fed spiritually by the slave).

So, if you are no longer a part of that composite group [of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food], ipso facto you lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body.

But I had a look around in the literature and there are many places where it specifies that the "faithful and discreet slave" is made up of anointed Christians on earth. (Watchtower 02/01/75 p.77 para.4; 05/15/95 p.16 para.2; 03/15/02 p.14 para.4; 03/01/04 p.10 para.9; 11/01/07 p.30 para.12; 02/15/09 p.24 para.2; 06/15/09 p.22 para.11; 10/15/09 p.15 para.14; "Organized to do Jehovah's Will", 2019, pp.17-23 para.4).

As an example, the 1975 Watchtower referred to above says :

As a congregation, body or group, the anointed, spirit-begotten brothers of Jesus Christ, while on earth, are called his “faithful and discreet slave,” or servant.

The only place I could find that suggested the "faithful and discreet slave" retained membership after death was a commentary on Revelation published in 1918 entitled The Finished Mystery. In commenting on Revelation 8:3 it says:

And another angel. - Not the "voice of the Lord," mentioned in the preceding chapter, but the corporate body - the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, which Pastor Russell formed to finish his work. This verse shows that, though Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work.

However, that idea didn't retain currency and hasn't been held by Jehovah's Witnesses for at least ninety years.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Listener : Part of the FDS have already gone to heaven, according to their teachings, that includes Rutherford, Knorr and Franz. What happened to their appointment?

The faithful and discreet slave is "a composite slave - a group working together as one body" (2012 Annual Meeting Report) whose members are, individually, domestics just like all the rest of Jesus' genuine followers (The Watchtower of July 2013, "Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?", para.13).

So, whether members of the "faithful and discreet slave" leave the group as a result of death or any other cause, they relinquish their appointment to the body.

The question arises, then, if they relinquish their appointment as part of the "faithful and discreet slave" at death, how can they get their appointment "over all his belongings" when they are resurrected to heavenly life during the great tribulation (as at death they lose membership of the "faithful and discreet slave" body)? The only answer I can see is that they simply share the reward of all anointed followers (see para.19 of the 2013 Watchtower referred to above) but that is not particularly satisfying as exegesis.

I hope I haven't lost you, Jerryh, but their adjustment in understanding of the "faithful and discreet slave" has created as many questions as it resolved,

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

Longlivetherenegades : In all those slave illustrations, it was when the MASTER was LEAVING, TRAVELLING e.t.c that he handed out tasks to his slaves not when he RETURNED.

While it is true that the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) does start off "when a man was about to travel abroad", the Watchtower of March 15, 2015 discussed the parables of Matthew 24 & 25 and identified the slaves in this parable as representing all his anointed followers since Pentecost 33 C.E. They are expecting the "master of the slaves" to come and settle accounts towards the end of the great tribulation.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not identify these slaves with the "faithful and discreet slave" of Matthew 24:45-47, and it can be seen when reading the verses prior to vs 45 (vss 32-44) that they refer to the coming (not going) of the Son of Man.

Jehovah's Witnesses make a distinction between the parousia (rendered as 'coming' in some translations) referred to in Matthew 24:3, and his arrival or coming (forms of the Greek verb, er′kho·mai.) referred to in Matthew 24:30, 42, 44 which they expect during the great tribulation (Watchtower July 15, 2013, pp.23-27).

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

mickbobcat : If the liberals are correct on this than if you are 10 and murder you go to big boy jail.

WIC 602 (b)(1).says that "Any minor who is under 12 years of age when he or she is alleged to have committed [murder] is within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court, which may adjudge the minor to be a ward of the court.

Whether the liberals are correct on this or not.

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Simon : I think this is a better start than just "minor" and "10 years" as it doesn't account for the differences along the spectrum of ages.

Therre is much to recommend there, Simon, and I appreciate there may still be a bit of tweaking to be done, but there will always be circumstances where the discretion of the judge is a more just solution than mandatory guidelines for registration as a sex offender.

For example, consider the case I refer to in my previous post. The circumstances were that the defendant met his 16-year-old female victim in an Internet chat room. After chatting with the victim a number of times on the Internet and speaking to her by phone, defendant met her and her young friend at a beach. Defendant brought rum and orange juice, which the girls drank. The victim`s friend got drunk and sick. Before taking the girls home, defendant told the victim, you owe me something. The victim orally copulated him.

In your proposed guidelines he would not have been prosecuted in the first place, and would certainly not have been required to register.

Also, comparing your table with current legislation, registration is mandatory (as you also have it) when the victim is 11, 12, 13, 16 and 17 and is at the discretion of the judge when the victim is 14 or 15.

28

1919 2013 2020 and the Slave

by Jerryh in

jw
friends

i was never a jw but i lurk in this forum occasionally, trying to rescue some family.

i will spare you those details.. jw.org and jwfacts are there with youtubes out the wazoo but i would appreciate your thought on this.. i know there are contradictions plenty but this is foundational, blatant and current.

i know they typically just blow off.

Earnest

waton : Who exactly will fill that vacuum? Or is that to heavenly universal office?

Yes, those who make up the faithful slave will get their appointment "over all his belongings" when they are resurrected to heavenly life during the great tribulation and given royal authority in heaven and on earth.

Jerryh : This is truncated but is it accurate?

As you noted earlier, in 2012/13 there was an adjustment in understanding. So your summary is out of date. Jesus' appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave" did not happen at Pentecost or in 1879.

The first inspection occurred between 1914 and early 1919, and the appointment of the slave over his domestics was in 1919.

At that time the slave consisted of a small group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters who were directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food.

In recent years, that group has been identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The second inspection is during the great tribulation when those who make up the slave will receive their heavenly reward, becoming corulers with Christ. They will be sharing this reward with all the anointed who have a heavenly resurrection.

If you want to read further on it, it is discussed in the 2012 Annual Meeting Report and The Watchtower of July 2013.

70

California passes bill lessening penalty for pedophiles having sex with willing kids.

by mickbobcat in

i was wondering about this.

if california or other far left groups in charge would push for making pedophiles quote normal unquote.

so it passed but has yet to be signed by newsom.

Earnest

Simon : you retreat to convenient example of a 17 + 18 year old couple which no one that I'm aware of has any real concern over

The reason I give that example, Simon, is exactly because that makes it clear why discretionary registration as a sex offender is preferable to mandatory registration. Discretionary registration allows the judge to decide in the case of the 18 year old that he is not required to register as a sex offender, and decide in a case where the age difference is unacceptably greater that the perpetrator is required to register. Whereas the situation before this Bill which required mandatory registration does not allow for that distinction.

I explained in a previous post on this thread that this debacle arose in a case involving a 22 year old who had voluntary oral sex with a 16 year old. The review by the Superior Court makes the point quite well:

At the sentencing hearing, defense counsel argued that under the circumstances of this case, defendant should not be subject to mandatory lifetime registration as a sex offender. Counsel said: It`s kind of ironic, because if he had actually had sexual intercourse with [the minor] and was charged and convicted of statutory rape, he would not have to register under 290 of the Penal Code. It seems to me that his conduct is less serious in that sort of a situation, yet the statute seems to suggest that he is required to register for life. I think that is a violation of equal protection under the laws and a violation of the California Constitution . . . .
The prosecutor responded that he would have no objection if defendant, after completing probation, were to ask the trial court to have his felony conviction reduced to a misdemeanor and to delete the requirement of lifetime registration as a sex offender. The trial court asked: Doesn`t it [the lifetime registration requirement] seem a little out of whack here? The prosecutor agreed: I think the law is out of whack. But that`s the law. The trial court observed that in applying the registration requirement here, the law did appear to be out of whack, but said it could not find on the face of it that it`s unconstitutional.