Posts by Earnest

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : ...it would not hurt you to accept that the authorities I have cited are have also at least, if not of the higher weight, like Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus, Jerome.

If we consider that the great majority of the New Testament quotations from the Old are from the Greek LXX rather than the Hebrew text, it seems absurd to suggest these other translations should have "at least, if not the higher weight". Mark 7:6,7 even has Jesus quoting from the LXX and what greater weight can you get?

The adoption of the LXX by the Christians as their scriptures naturally engendered suspicion on the part of Jews, especially when the messianic texts were applied to Jesus (e.g. Isaiah 7:14). In addition, the emergence of a single Hebrew text type after the destruction of the Temple made the great differences between it and the LXX increasingly intolerable to Jews, and the need was felt for a Greek translation based upon the current Hebrew text in circulation.

So, in the second century the versions of Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion were prepared for Greek-speaking Jews, all of which revised the verb used in the LXX at Proverbs 8:22 which Christians (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria) were applying to Christ. In the third century Origen edited the LXX on the basis of the Hebrew and retained the verb ἔκτισε (meaning "created") at Proverbs 8:22 despite the alternative renderings in the other Greek versions. So there is good reason to accept the LXX translation as having greater authority for Christians than the alternatives you seem to prefer.

50

To All Those Keen To Tell Us About Their Beliefs

by Simon in

we seem to have had an influx of religiots - the people who want to tell us all about how we / the wts / whoever are wrong, wrong, wrong about everything and how right they are.

they obviously have special insight, or voices (probably voices, right?

) telling them the real truth.. as proof, there is inevitably a wall of random scripture references and quotes.. sorry, but we're not here for that.

Earnest

slimboyfat : Isaac Newton, who was extremely into his Bible prophecy, apparently predicted the end for 2060, or, to put it more precisely, that 2060 was the latest date it could possibly be. If I recall correctly, this date was arrived at by adding 1260 day/years from Revelation to the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD.

Correct. In one of Newton's papers (Yahuda MS 7.3g, folio 13 verso), currently held by the Jewish National and University Library in Jerusalem, he wrote :

So then the time times & half a time [Daniel 7:25] are 42 months [Revelation 11:2; 13:5] or 1260 days [Revelation 11:3; 12:6] or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a yeare & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast.

The reason 800 C.E. is important is because Newton claims that is the beginning of the Pope's supremacy, when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as emperor at St Peter's in Rome. The 1260 years corresponds to the duration of the corruption of the Church, starting from 800.

You will note from the text I have emboldened that 2060 was not the latest date it could possibly end, but the earliest. Newton actually writes in another place (Yahuda MS 7.3o, folio 8 recto) :

The time times & half time do not end before 2060 nor after

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed (quoting God’s Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing for Man’s Good) : Of course, divine wisdom does not have any separate existence apart from God. Wisdom always existed in Him and so was not created. For this reason it is interesting to hear how wisdom speaks of herself as a feminine person ...

After quoting from Rabbi Isaac Leeser's translation where Proverbs 8:22 reads "The Lord created me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works from the commencement", the book goes on to say:

Jewish leaders are concerned about the application that may be made of the above Bible verses. In the Soncino Press edition of Proverbs, of 1945, we read in the footnote on this section: "For the Jewish reader this interpretation is of much importance in view of the Christological use made of this section by the early Church Fathers." At any rate, Proverbs 8:22 speaks of something as being created as the beginning of the way of Jehovah God, as "the first of his works from the commencement." A "created" wisdom!

But since you bring up the matter of Proverbs 8 again, may I take issue with your comment that "the Peshitta (Syriac) isn't translated from Hebrew, but most likely from the Greek Septuagint".

slimboyfat referred to Emanuel Tov’s Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (2011) where it says the Peshitta was translated from Hebrew.

In The Bible in the Syriac Tradition Sebastian Brock, concurs and says (p.13) "the Peshitta Old Testament was translated directly from the original Hebrew text, and the Peshitta New Testament directly from the original Greek".

He goes further and says (p.22):

One other book in the Peshitta has close links with the Targum, namely Proverbs. Here the situation is unique, for the Peshitta and the Targum are virtually word for word the same much of the time, and one must definitely derive from the other. One would expect the Peshitta to be derived from the Targum, but on linguistic grounds it can be shown that in fact the Targum must derive in this book from the Peshitta. This means that the Peshitta translation of Proverbs is also likely to have been the work of Jews in north Mesopotamia: it subsequently came to be taken over by Syriac-speaking Christians and by later Jews (who lightly modified the dialect).

Why is this relevant? Because both the Syriac Peshitta and the Aramaic Targum use the verb 'created' at Proverbs 8:22.

Peshitta : "The Lord created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

Targum : "God created me in the beginning of his creation, and before all his works."

In addition, in the Wisdom of Ben Sira, written in Hebrew in the early second century B.C.E., it says in several places that wisdom was created (1:4 "Before all other things wisdom was created"; 1:9 "It is he [the Lord] who created her"; 24:9 "Before all ages, from the beginning, he created me [wisdom]").

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : It is quite clear what Arians do, they take one of the least likely meanings of the word, and then interpret this least likely meaning of that meaning in the least likely way, which is excluded by other statements in Scripture.

You completely ignore that the meaning given to the word 'qanah' in Proverbs 8:22 is not a meaning given by Arians, but by lexicographers Brown-Driver-Briggs. You also ignore my question whether the use of 'qanah' in Genesis 14:19,22 means a bringing into existence from nothing.

Your argument seems to be that because John describes Jesus as only-begotten, the meaning given by Brown-Driver-Briggs to 'qanah' in Proverbs 8:22 must be wrong. I think you are confusing lexicography with theology.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : When the pope "creates" a cardinal, doesn't mean he brings him to existence ex nihilo, but appoints him to a position.

Why not compare Proverbs 8:22 with Genesis 14:19, 22 which also uses 'qanah' in relation to God.

Genesis 14:19, 22 : "Then he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth...At this Aʹbram said to the king of Sodʹom: “I do lift up my hand [in an oath] to Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth"

Do you think this means an appointment to a position or bringing into existence from nothing?

Whether or not Proverbs 8 refers to Christ is a matter of interpretation, but it is difficult to imagine Paul did not have it in mind when he referred to Christ as the "wisdom of God".

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed : So 'qanah' in the whole book of Proverbs means something, but right in 8:22 it means something else,

That is exactly what lexicographers Brown-Driver-Briggs uphold. The point is that none of the other scriptures in Proverbs refer to 'qanah' in relation to God. When it is used in relation to God it has the sense of originating or creating, as Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6; and Psalm 139:13 substantiate.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed : You should compare how is the verb 'qanah' translated in the Book of Proverbs 1:5, 4:5, 4:7, 15:32, 16:16, 18:15, 19:8.

In Brown-Driver-Briggs it gives four different senses in which 'qanah' is used:

(a) of God as originating, creating. Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6; Psalm 139:13; Proverbs 8:22.

(b) of God as victoriously redeeming his people. Exodus 15:16; Isaiah 11:11; Psalm 74:2; Psalm 78:54.

(c) of Eve, acquiring (i.e. with the help of). Genesis 4:1.

(d) of acquiring wisdom, knowledge. Proverbs 1:5, Proverbs 4:5 (twice in verse), Proverbs 4:7 (twice in verse), Proverbs 15:32, Proverbs 16:16 (twice in verse), Proverbs 17:16; Proverbs 18:15, Proverbs 19:8; Proverbs 23:23.

Note that all the examples you provide is where 'qanah' has the sense of acquiring wisdom or knowledge.

The five instances where Brown-Driver-Briggs give 'qanah' the sense of originating, creating are

Genesis 14:19, 22 : "Then he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth...At this Aʹbram said to the king of Sodʹom: “I do lift up my hand [in an oath] to Jehovah the Most High God, Producer of heaven and earth"
Deuteronomy 32:6 : "Is it to Jehovah that YOU keep doing this way, O people stupid and not wise? Is he not your Father who has produced you, He who made you and proceeded to give you stability?"
Psalm 139:13 : "For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother."
Proverbs 8:22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed : There does not seem indeed any ground for the thought of creation either in the meaning of the root, or in the general usage of the word.

You may cite Athanasius as much as you like, but you fail to address the Jewish and other translations provided by slimboyfat as well as the lexicons (such as Brown-Driver-Briggs and Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament) which render "qanah" as 'create' in Proverbs 8:22.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : I also quote from here:

What you do not quote is the response to that post which addresses it in detail, including the thought that Psalm 139:13 is possibly the most difficult passage of all standing in the way of one who refuses to acknowledge a qanâ = ‘create’ in the Hebrew Bible, and that the Syriac (and Targum) has “created me,” which is a translation generally accepted to be from the Hebrew.

12

Another new missing part of the Bible found

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22011278/new-bible-chapter-hidden-verses-discovered-erased-scribe/.

i wonder what the remaining members of the gb will make of this?.

i excited to read all of this once it’s released and compare with the rest of mathew.

Earnest

Disillusioned JW : But despite saying the discovery is of a translation older than the Sinaiticus, the article says the discovered text "... was first written in the 3rd century CE and copied in the 6th century CE"

The article in LiveScience throws a bit more light on the subject. It says :

The most recent text on the parchment is written in Georgian, and there is an earlier text underneath it written in Greek. But when Grigory Kesselpens in new tab), a scholar who studies Syriac with the Austrian Academy of Sciences, examined UV images provided by the Vatican library, he found yet another layer hidden beneath the Greek text.
The Old Syriac text contains part of Matthew 12:1. Kessel speculated that someone copied the verse onto the parchment during the sixth century. Based on the language, Kessel estimates that the original may have been produced in the third century.

The article Kessel wrote [A New (Double Palimpsest) Witness to the Old Syriac Gospels (Vat. iber. 4, ff. 1 & 5)] can be found in New Testament Studies where he says that there can be no doubt that it was produced no later than the sixth century. Despite a limited number of dated manuscripts from this period, comparison with dated Syriac manuscripts allows us to narrow down a possible time frame to the first half of the sixth century.

Earnest

Posts by Earnest

aqwsed12345 : I also quote from here: