Posts by Earnest

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

moomanchu : Imagine reversing the situation. 100,000 white people in a stadium chanting for the death of blacks.

As the title of the opus is "Why do they want to kill all the White People", I would like to address the video of Julius Malema singing Dubul' ibhunu (Kill the Boer) in a stadium in 2023 to an estimated 90,000 supporters. This song arose during the armed struggle against apartheid and became a sort of war cry. The word 'Boer', as in "Kill the Boer", has several meanings depending on the context. It can mean 'farmer', it can mean someone of Dutch origin (Afrikaner) as in Anglo-Boer War, it was often just used to refer to the police or the army (who were primarily white Afrikaners). When it was used during the armed struggle there is no doubt many took it literally. But, even at that point, the song was not about "killing all white people" but specifically those who were their oppressors, and particularly their agents i.e. the police and the army.

Malema first sang this song while he was still a member of the ANC in March 2010. At the time he was taken to court and the high court ruled that the song was "unconstitutional and unlawful". Malema faced trial for "hate speech" in 2011 and was convicted, the judge ordering Malema and the ANC to stop singing the song in public or in private. In 2012 the ANC agreed to stop singing the song, even though they maintained it should be understood in its political context and not literally.

In 2022 Malema (now head of the EFF) was again taken to court for singing the song, where it was debated whether the song amounted to hate speech. The court accepted Malema's argument that the lyrics should not be interpreted literally but in their proper historical context as a statement of resistance to land dispossession.

The High Court ruled that (a) the chant and song were not intended to be taken seriously; (b) that there was not evidence of a causal link between the song and violence; (c) that the reference to Boer did not literally refer to White or Afrikaans people; (d) that the song did not incite hatred towards White people generally; and so the song was not hate speech and deserves to be protected under the rubric of freedom of speech. One might not agree with the court's decision, but in 2024 the Supreme Court of Appeal upheld the verdict.

That's not quite the end of the matter, but clearly the courts have ruled that the song is not taken literally today and is protected by freedom of speech. No doubt Malema will continue to court publicity, and the recent involvement by Donald Trump has only served to enhance his reputation.

36

Dinosaur Soft Tissue

by Sea Breeze in

back when the dinosaur soft tissue story was broken in 2005, i predicted that that many more soft tissues would be found and that it wouldn't matter if it was supposedly "65 million" years old or "165 million" years old.

the prediction has proven true and dinosaur soft tissue is routinely now found regardless of supposed age.

this is easy to predict using a literal reading of genesis and accepting it as history.... .

Earnest

Good to see Sea Breeze has a sense of humour.

The "dragon" is Dracorex hogwartsia (palaeontologists also have a sense of humour), dating back to the Late Cretaceous, 66 million years ago. See Are Dragons Real for further details.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : The spinoff happened last year

uMkhonto weSizwe (MK) - the People's Army - was launched on 16 December 1961 (after Sharpeville). It was disbanded on 16 December 1993. The political party, MK, was formed in September 2023, thirty years after MK disbanded. This was no spinoff, but certainly a propaganda coup as the ANC had failed to register MK as a trademark.

Anony Mous : Significant numbers (a little less than half) of ANC voters as well as various politicians have switched to MK showing you there has historically not been much difference.

The reasons for people switching parties is complex, but to say that "there has historically not been much difference" is a bit absurd when MK (political party) has no history. It was only formed in September 2023. If I was to hazard a guess why some ANC voters and politicians switched to MK I would say it more likely revolved around the personality of Jacob Zuma than anything else.

The only similarity between politics in South Africa and the United States is that people sometimes vote on the basis of personality instead of policy.

Anony Mous : MK was directly calling for outright genocide - they said the quiet part out loud.

What nonsense. I have no love for Jacob Zuma. He is currently charged with two counts of corruption, one count each of racketeering and money-laundering, and twelve counts of fraud. But your suggestion that politicians are "directly calling for outright genocide" is simply pandering to the propaganda of the far right.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : You quoted the law that said nil compensation may be just and equitable.

Yes. If the previous government purchased a farm for me and I am doing nothing with it, what sort of compensation do you think would be just and equitable if the current government expropriated it?

If you bother to read the Expropriation Act you will see there are safeguards built into it to ensure fairness and justice, including section 25 (1) : "No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property."

Anony Mous (quoting Wikipedia) : Radical political parties, such as the [EFF] and [MK (political party)] ... condone violent, race-based rhetoric and protest action that support land seizures and attacks or crimes against farmers.
Anony Mous : Note that MK are the armed forces of ANC, the thing Mandela was the leader of and convicted for.

It should first be noted that MK (political party) are not the armed forces of the ANC. If you check the Wikipedia link you provided, you will see it was founded in December 2023, that the ANC has threatened legal action over the use of the name, and that MK's leader, Jacob Zuma, was expelled from the ANC in 2024.

Most of the rhetoric about land seizures and crimes against farmers is due to the populist leader of the EFF, Julius Malema. He was also expelled from the ANC ("for racism and hate speech"). He thrives on publicity and is regularly taken to court over his inflammatory language. He has been convicted of hate speech twice, and he is taken to court when he incites illegal activity (see Reuters).

Anony Mous : Your opinion that it is “just crime” does not stroke with the fact it is condoned by and executed by a faction within the major political ruling party.

Neither Malema (EFF) nor Zuma (MK) are factions within the major political party. They were both expelled from the ANC. They are both populists and gained 9.5% and 14.6% respectively in the 2024 general election. Not to be sneezed at, I suppose, but neither of them were included in the coalition government formed after the election.

Anony Mous : GenocideWatch.org puts South Africa at stage 6 (there are 8 levels).

(a) There are ten levels, not eight, and the process is not linear.

In other words, the fact that there is Polarization (Stage 6) in South Africa does not mean it is four steps away from genocide. It means one element which contributes towards genocide has been identified. Compare that to six stages in the United States - Classification (Stage 1), Symbolization (Stage 2), Discrimination (Stage 3), Dehumanization (Stage 4), Polarization (Stage 6) & Denial (Stage 10).

(b) There are some elements of Stage 6 (Polarization) which are true in South Africa, like "extremists drive the groups apart", but other elements like "the dominant group passes emergency laws or decrees that grants them total power over the targeted group" are irrelevant. South Africa does go through periods when it is more polarized than others, often coinciding with elections, but in general people get along well.

Anony Mous : Here is the EU asking questions a few years ago: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2018-000476_EN.html

That question was specifically put by Udo Voigt,. a German politician and former Member of the European Parliament for the far-right and Neo-Nazi National Democratic Party of Germany between 2014 and 2019. It would seem he was influenced by the propaganda of the far-right in South Africa, as his claims that the murder rate among white South Africans is three times higher than the national average, while that of white farmers is six times higher is easily debunked. In the 2022/23 year there were 51 murders on farms of a total of 27,494 murders nationwide. According to Afriforum there were roughly 60 farm murders a year between 2010 and 2019. Most murders occur in the predominantly black/coloured townships where there are barely any whites.

Anony Mous : But nobody is genociding Gazans/Israelis except Hamas.

GenocideWatch says this :

Genocide Watch has concluded that Israel has committed all five acts of genocide enumerated in the Genocide Convention. Israel’s war and destruction of the Palestinian population of Gaza exemplifies all ten stages of genocide. Please read Genocide Watch’s careful analysis of the conclusive evidence of genocide by Israel in our report: Genocide is Never Justifiable.
The Panel of Experts in International Law convened by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, UN Special Rapporteurs convened by the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and other reputable human rights organizations have also concluded that Israel is committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in Gaza.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : That is what the law said, there was no provision for expropriation, land could not be transferred to blacks, but could also not be forcibly transferred to the state.

Of course there were provisions for expropriation, e.g. Expropriation Act 1975. But the apartheid state didn't need to expropriate land, they just declared it a white group area and all other races had to move.

Anony Mous : It displaced primarily poor people that had moved to the cities

It displaced everyone who was not white - poor, middle-class or wealthy.

Anony Mous : The law you quoted that is being implemented shows clearly that equity (aka DEI or perceived race benefit) is the measure, not land value

The law says that the amount of compensation must reflect relevant circumstances including (Section 25 (3)) :

(a) the current use of the property;
(b) the history of the acquisition and use of the property;
(c) the market value of the property;
(d) the extent of direct state investment and subsidy in the acquisition and
beneficial capital improvement of the property; and
(e) the purpose of the expropriation

Anony Mous : Reparations are always bad...

Why?

Anony Mous : It also doesn’t justify the slaughter and rape which has been independently verified to be on the order of a genocide and of that you can actually find evidence.

It didn't occur to me that the reason the South African government is accused of genocide is because of the current situation in Gaza and their "temerity to call out genocide when they saw it". Quite so. There is a lot of crime in South Africa which is why many have left and why farmers have been targeted as they are perceived as being wealthy and isolated i.e. easy prey. But to speak of genocide as if deaths are authorised by the government, as they are in Gaza, is simply self-serving nonsense.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : under Apartheid no property was ever seized

Where do I start? The National Party (which championed apartheid) was elected in 1948. In 1950 they passed the Group Areas Act :

The GAA created the legal framework for varying levels of government to establish particular neighbourhoods as 'group areas', where only people of a particular race were able to reside. It displaced hundreds of thousands of people; breaking up families, friends, and communities. This was due in large part to the retroactive application of the law, meaning that once an area was declared a group area, the GAA had the power to demolish all the houses there and displace everyone who was not of the designated group.

I witnessed this myself when an area in my city was declared a white group area, and our servant who was Asian was forced to leave her home and live outside the city in accommodation and surroundings far inferior to what she had enjoyed. This affected hundreds of thousands of people. Most cities were declared white group areas, so everyone other than the whites were forced to move outside the cities.

Anony Mous : under ANC it is, as you said with minimal to no compensation for “sins” supposedly committed 300 years ago

(a) that's not what I said

(b) as I explained above, the land which is being returned was primarily seized in my lifetime, since the Group Areas Act was passed in 1950, not 300 years ago.

The Expropriation Act 13 of 2024 makes clear that compensation for land expropriated should be fair and equitable. Section 25 (2) and (3) hold :

(2) Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application—
(a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and
(b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.
(3) The amount of the compensation and the time and manner of payment must be just and equitable, reflecting an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected, having regard to all relevant circumstances ...

I did say "There is a recent law which allows for a small number of exceptions where compensation is not paid and that is usually when a farm or piece of land is not being used."

Chapter 5 Section 12 (3) of the same Act says :

(3) It may be just and equitable for nil compensation to be paid where land is expropriated in the public interest, having regard to all relevant circumstances, including but not limited to—
(a) where the land is not being used and the owner’s main purpose is not to develop the land or use it to generate income, but to benefit from appreciation of its market value;
(b) where an organ of state holds land that it is not using for its core functions and is not reasonably likely to require the land for its future activities in that regard, and the organ of state acquired the land for no consideration;
(c) notwithstanding registration of ownership in terms of the Deeds Registries Act, 1937 (Act No. 47 of 1937), where an owner has abandoned the land by failing to exercise control over it despite being reasonably capable of doing so;
(d) where the market value of the land is equivalent to, or less than, the present value of direct state investment or subsidy in the acquisition and beneficial capital improvement of the land.

I have provided a link to the law allowing expropriation with and without compensation. Please read what the law says rather than the hype aroused by media reports.

Anony Mous : The Afrikaner did not confiscate Xhosa lands.

See my discussion of the Group Areas Act above. The Nationalist government (not all Afrikaners supported the government e.g. Jan Smuts) confiscated land where blacks were living, regardless of their tribe, if it was declared a white group area. Your reference to "Xhosa lands" is like referring to "Afrikaner lands" and restricting that to the area where the Dutch first settled, in the Cape.

Anony Mous : The ANC represents mostly tribes from the Zulu nation that came from the North

False. While the ANC consists of blacks from many tribes including Zulu, the Zulu nation was largely represented by the Inkatha Freedom Party led by Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

Anony Mous : Anti-Apartheid basically was a ploy to get cheap land and labor.

What do you think the policy of apartheid was? I am lost for words by this 'Alice in Wonderland' reversal of the truth.

22

Is there a new rule regarding disfellowshipped people?

by HOTB in

does anyone have any information about a relaxing of the rules regarding family reaching out to disfellowshipped members?.

i've heard of an elder being openly in touch with a long time disfellowshipped family member.

apparently the term 'compassionate view' had been bandied about.. i can't find anything relating to this.. i'd be interested what the new rule is in when came into play.. hotb .

Earnest

jhine : So you can only be " removed" for 90 days?

In the 2024 Governing Body Update #2 changes in the disfellowshipping arrangement were outlined. Amongst those changes it was said (@ 10:00) that when someone is disfellowshipped/removed it would be explained to them that the committee would like to meet with the individual "after a few months" to see if s/he has had a change of heart. This is repeated in the August 2024 Watchtower study article, para.6. However, in the March 2024 document "Adjustments to Handling Serious Wrongdoing" it was more specific. It said (para.15) :

If the individual is not an apostate or actively promoting wrongdoing, [the elders] will also inform him that they would like to meet with him again in three months to determine if he has had a change of heart. In some cases, but not all, the committee may determine that there is a basis for reinstating the individual at that time. On the other hand, if he has not had a change of heart or if additional time is needed (see the special caution in paragraph 16), the elders will endeavor to reach out to him every six months if he is agreeable, unless he requests reinstatement before that time.

So, essentially, you are removed from the congregation until such time as you are repentant. It can be as short as three months, it can be a lifetime.

Paragraph 16 : Although a repentant individual should be reinstated without delay, such sins as child abuse, apostasy, and scheming to end a marriage require special caution. (2 Pet. 2:9, 10).

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : since the early 1960s to 1993 about 19,000 cases of human rights abuses have been documented.

After the end of apartheid, Nelson Mandela set up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission chaired by Desmond Tutu. They found that there were more than 19,000 people who had been victims of human rights violations. But the great majority of these violations had been committed by the state, including 73 deaths in detention by the security police.

Anony Mous : Since Mandela rose to power ... more than 82,000 white farmers have been dispossessed of their property under communist laws against property holdings.

That is simply not true. There has been an attempt to restore land that was illegally seized under apartheid laws, but it is necessary for the claimants to prove that the land was originally theirs, and the state has to pay compensation for improvements made to the land in the interim. There is a recent law which allows for a small number of exceptions where compensation is not paid and that is usually when a farm or piece of land is not being used. Even so, any seizure of land has to go through the courts. Your emotional use of words like "dispossessed" and "communist laws" do not reflect reality. You say your claims are well-documented but provide no documentation.

And as for your stock photo of someone with a sign "Kill All Whites", while I don't know the circumstances when that was taken I do know that today he would be charged with a hate crime.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

hoser : The violence is real but possibly not politically motivated

Yes. I have friends who moved to New Zealand for the same reason. I wouldn't describe South Africa as a safe place to live, and when there was a civil war going on the attacks on farms were political. But apartheid ended more than thirty years ago. By and large, South Africans of all hues get along well together. The rainbow nation. But violent crime and corruption remain a problem with no easy solution in sight.

41

Why do they want to kill all the White People?

by liam in

the hatred against whites is escalating to an unprecedented degree.

in south africa, they are calling for complete genocide of white people.

for some reason they are targeting all the white farmers.. i’m so glad trump noticed.

Earnest

Anony Mous : From a pure historical perspective the whites are the natives,

The whites were never the native population. They primarily came from Holland and Britain, but there were others living there when they arrived who are commonly known as the San and the Khoisan.

Anony Mous : the ANC is a party of tribes that started invading about 200 years ago, after the white population had already settled.

There are whites in the ANC as well as blacks. It is a political party, not a race. Further, certain black tribes had already moved into areas east of the Kei river when the whites arrived, and so it was the whites invading areas east of the Kei river after the black population had settled there.

Anony Mous : People seem to forget that Mandela went to prison for killing white and black farmers,

Mandela went to prison for treason, not for killing white and black farmers.

hoser : Seems like it’s just a violent place to be.

It has had a violent history with a lot of wrongs committed by both black and white. But what attacks there have been on farmers have been crime-based rather than political. They are easy targets because they are isolated and have property. The notion that there is a politically motivated genocide of white farmers is something no South African believes except those who want a ticket to the United States.